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  • child's view

    Children can, and often do, make well informed intelligent decisions. Comparing a child not wanting to go to school to a child having a preference for which parent to live with is not a fair comparison. Firstly a judge would never agree with a child's wish to not get an education, but if a child had good reasons why they did not want to go to a particular school - such as a severe bulling issue, a judge might agree.

    I the case of custody, courts are NOT required to abide by a child's request, only to listen to it. Children often have very good reasons why they prefer one parent to the other. "Brainwashing" certainly can occur, but that is why children need to be 12 years old and why courts usually have a professional prepare and deliver a reports on the children's view, parenting capacity, and alienation.

    The real problem is that courts have a strong tendency to support mothers and not fathers.

    Comment


    • Let's get some facts straight. Yes, the court order is the order of the day. Police will not force apprehend a child and have them returned to their custodial home UNLESS your court order specifically states that police apprehension is required. Yes, you can bring a motion of contempt in front of a judge, but by that time if the child is already residing with the non-custodial parent, there will be little if anything a judge will do. Been there, done that. Yes, every parent, mother or father should abide by the agreed upon court order. This is not always the case, and when one person breaks the order, the onus is on the other parent to bring the matter before the courts at their expense. There is something wrong with that. My ex has broken every single court order for 13 years, nothing done. nadda. Get your children into counselling early, teach them how to express their feelings and by all means, encourage them to be honest, open and truthful. Listen to them, but they do not rule, you are still the parent.

      Comment


      • I think children absolutely should have a voice in custody battles at all ages. YEP ALL AGES. If they can speak they should be heard.

        These are little people, with their own thoughts, feelings, and intuition. They know what foods they like, what activities they enjoy. They know what feels good and what feels scary. They know I like playing soccer with mommy and playing wii with daddy. The majority would stand up and say I want EQUAL access to my parents and the minority would be heard saying I don't like it when mommy hits me or daddy yells all the time. Presto - an inkling into who should have primary and who needs parenting classes.

        This also nips in the bud any alienation before brainwashing sets in and the answers are in alignment with only one parent. Psychologists are trained to see through this by certain markers. Wouldn't it be better to stop it before it starts.

        All children are born loving those that are there for them, love them, and are given an opportunity to bond. Some will fall short of being a great parent but they are still that childs parent. Each relationship should be given the utmost care and respect so that the child can have a healthy attachment to their primary carers.

        These parents that are hell bent on limiting time, access and live in a state of vendictive rage shouldn't be rewarded by the courts. It is a disgrace!

        My 6 year old step daughter cried into my arms asking why she can't be here more?

        My answer - it is complicated. Trust me, us grown ups are trying to fix it.

        Her response - Well no one has asked me what I want.

        And before I get jumped upon - I was not discussing adult matters with her, she hasn't a clue about the battle her mother has waged. I was comforting a confused little person who didn't feel heard. It was heart breaking.

        Bit by bit the time share and the alienation in attempts to oust their dad out of their lives has gone on. The kids aren't stupid. They know when 1 day isn't 3 like it was before. They know when last year they got a week at Christmas.

        I think the limitations of the OCL are devastating they should be available for EVERY CASE. I think Children should have a voice. Granted it shouldn't be the final say because they are limited in understanding the scope of the situation but at least they should be heard.

        While all the parents are arguing in court all the kids can go down in to a play room and some nicely trained child specialist can ask them questions in a highly trained and highly protected environment. If the Private assessors can do it at a hefty cost of 20,000 then it is possible to do it in a manor that is in the best interest of the children.

        Children need to be heard and their feelings considered.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by karmaseeker View Post

          Children need to be heard and their feelings considered.
          Children need to be able to understand why they have those feelings and also be able to understand that certain things are in their best interest, whether they like it or not. I'd love to see my 5y/o try and explain why she doesn't want to go back to her mom's (which she has said to me) when there is no reason.....well, the only reason is she is having fun at my place. There is no real animosity between her mom and I, and we've done a good job keeping my daughter out of the crossfire when we've been dealing with adult matters (updating our agreement).

          Further, children need to know the ramifications of their decisions. And the courts have regularly agreed that children under the age of 12 are generally incapable of making those decisions.

          Children have a tendancy to do what feels good in the moment, without though or concern of why or what happens. Notwithstanding the fact that young children can be easily swayed and are impressionable.

          Allowing kids to make decisions of this magnitude on their own is a recipe for disaster.

          Comment


          • Hammerdad, a well trained psychologist knows the difference between being caught up in the moment having fun and a child who is frantic with clearly expressed reasons. Even a five year old knows that abuse hurts.

            My ex and I were the same as you and yours hammerdad. No issues of any magnitude and my son during transfers would occasional act up. This is easily explained as normal childhood separation anxiety. As soon as drop off was complete he would be busily entertained with the next activity of choice.

            My step daughters on the other hand have been stating clearly their desires for 2 years now. One is 8 one is 6.5. This is not a once off or occasional scenario. This is two little people acting out and basically begging to be heard. They are children and can't express themselves in adult langauge or in logical argument (those skills develop later) but they certainly do have the capacity to express the fact they are very frustrated.

            Child specialists can translate kid language and should be a resource utilized in all divorces. If they can mandate mediation for parents or parenting classes to ward off problems by poorly drafted kitchen table agreements than they can equally mandate a visit or play program with children of divorce to idenify if there is normal childhood development or any signs developing of cause for concern.

            Of course in my world I would rework the entire system cause it is ridiculous and barbaric and is set up to cause more conflict, prolong issues, and suck family resources dry.


            And we call ourselves a civilized nation that is developed. Yeah, that's a laugh! Corruption, Competition, Ego driven, narcissistic, entitlement centred, Profit focus, etc etc.

            We are not a society that live with the know how that it takes a community to raise a child. We are failing every time we shut down and don't listen to the little people.

            And sure I am idealistic and have been told my ideals are apparently unrealistic but as Ghandi said "be the change you want to see in the world". And I live by that and will never settle for "yeah, but that's just the way things are".
            Last edited by karmaseeker; 07-08-2011, 11:33 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by karmaseeker View Post
              Hammerdad, a well trained psychologist knows the difference between being caught up in the moment having fun and a child who is frantic with clearly expressed reasons.
              But not everyone has the resources or availability to have a trained child psychologist at their disposal to determine if the child is being coaches, just having fun or legitimate concerns.

              Even a five year old knows that abuse hurts.
              If a parent has concerns of abuse, there are other remedies available THAT THE PARENT should take the initiative to get. Like calling the CAS, filing a motion in court for supervised access due to proven abuse. Filing a motion in court to involve the OCL on behalf of the children.

              My step daughters on the other hand have been stating clearly their desires for 2 years now. One is 8 one is 6.5. This is not a once off or occasional scenario. This is two little people acting out and basically begging to be heard. They are children and can't express themselves in adult langauge or in logical argument (those skills develop later) but they certainly do have the capacity to express the fact they are very frustrated.

              Child specialists can translate kid language and should be a resource utilized in all divorces.
              You say specialists can, but it is on the parents to bring the children to specialists and then for the specialists to make a determination. Any and all responsibility revolves around the parents using the appropriate means to remedy the situation. Otherwise there is a court order and the children/parents are not able to unilaterally decide they aren't going to follow it. There is the need for someone to ask the judge that they want to change the order and to provide proof to back it up.

              If they can mandate mediation for parents or parenting classes to ward off problems by poorly drafted kitchen table agreements than they can equally mandate a visit or play program with children of divorce to idenify if there is normal childhood development or any signs developing of cause for concern.
              Not something I want my tax dollars being spent on. If the parents involved in the situation has issues, they can spend their own money and go through to proper procedure of requesting this.

              We don't allow people under the age of 18 to vote for a reason. We don't allow people under the age of 16 to drive for a reason. We don't allow people under the age of 19 to drink for a reason.

              And allowing young children to start to say when they are going to abide by a court order creates a slippery slope. Because, unless you are a trained professional, are you always going to be able to determine when it is crocodile tears or legitimate concern? Or when the child is being manipulated (which may appear to be legitimate concern on behalf of the child)? You start allowing the kids to decide, you run the risk of a slippery slope of being cut out of your kids life.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                But not everyone has the resources or availability to have a trained child psychologist at their disposal to determine if the child is being coaches, just having fun or legitimate concerns.

                If an interview with the children was part of the cost and requirement to complete a divorce I imagine people would find the money.

                If it was also part of getting a divorce that parents must attend a parenting after divorce seminar and must complete a mediated separation agreement it would prevent a lot of things getting dragged out through the courts, manipulations of children, and other power grabs down the line.

                People start out with great notions of how they are going to get on well and not need lawyers and how they are going to be great co -parents then 2 years down the line there are new partners, shock has worn off, and often the crappy kitchen table separation agreement blows up in peoples faces. And the kids get the short stick.


                An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure

                By the time things have gotten so bad that CAS or OCL is involved a lot of damage has already been had. And unfortunately these services need it to be real horrific before they can do anything. So many times kids are on their way to being really bad but the abuse is not bad enough.

                If a parent has concerns of abuse, there are other remedies available THAT THE PARENT should take the initiative to get. Like calling the CAS, filing a motion in court for supervised access due to proven abuse. Filing a motion in court to involve the OCL on behalf of the children.


                And many parents have utilized these services or tried to but unfortunately emotional abuse and mental abuse incurred is not enough for them to do anything about. Not until they are in a real bad way. Plus there offices are not equipped to deal with the needs of the community so they turn away many a concerned parent.

                You say specialists can, but it is on the parents to bring the children to specialists and then for the specialists to make a determination. Any and all responsibility revolves around the parents using the appropriate means to remedy the situation. Otherwise there is a court order and the children/parents are not able to unilaterally decide they aren't going to follow it. There is the need for someone to ask the judge that they want to change the order and to provide proof to back it up.

                And what happens when one parent denies a child access to specialists? Absolutely, you need to turn to the courts for justice for the children.

                Not something I want my tax dollars being spent on. Your tax dollars will be spent on corrections, medical care, drug and alcohol rehabilitation and plenty other systems that have to deal with children that were not heard, slipped through the cracks, eaten up and spit out by the family court system and grew up to have any number of disorders, delinquent behavior etc. So again - wouldn't it be better to subsidize a program that stops the problems before they start?

                If the parents involved in the situation has issues, they can spend their own money and go through to proper procedure of requesting this. And what if they themselves don't have the common sense or mental function because of some borderline personality disorder to fix the problem from within.

                Again it takes a community to raise a child.


                We don't allow people under the age of 18 to vote for a reason. We don't allow people under the age of 16 to drive for a reason. We don't allow people under the age of 19 to drink for a reason.

                And allowing young children to start to say when they are going to abide by a court order creates a slippery slope. Because, unless you are a trained professional, are you always going to be able to determine when it is crocodile tears or legitimate concern? Or when the child is being manipulated (which may appear to be legitimate concern on behalf of the child)? You start allowing the kids to decide, you run the risk of a slippery slope of being cut out of your kids life.
                I didn't say children should decide or should have final say. I said they should be heard. Therefore, in failing to prevent high conflict - a case gets so far down the path that they are facing a judge or arbitrator and if major life decisions are being made that directly impact the child then they should at least get to be listened to. Ultimately, the last say rests with a judge in a situation where the parents are too conflicted to reach a cooperative decision. So mom had her say. Dad had his say. Little Johnny has his say. And judge weighs everyone's say and judge has final say.


                Everyone feels heard and everyone is considered.
                Last edited by karmaseeker; 07-08-2011, 09:52 PM.

                Comment


                • Agreed, by far the largest complaint from adults that endured divorce as children is their voices were never heard and in a very perverse sense we all know that children lives are altered the most through divorce.

                  The problems I encountered and clearly see with my divorce and custody war ( 2 boys, 11 and 14) was a system that has deep structural defects. Even if you routinely give children their voice in the process e.g. OCL, CAS, section 30 private assessor, interview with the judge, child affidavit , etc., the person(s) now charged with processing and deciding what to do with the child(s) voice may (often) not decide wisely or humanely.
                  In my firm view, that is why 50/50 rebuttable shared parenting legislation is critical to addressing the structural deficits. By forcing judges and assessors et al to legally start here( 50/50) and work downward is the best outcome for children. I don't think any system can effectively deal with personality disorders in family law. A recent study in Great Britain (n=3,500) close to 25% of all lawyers in the study were either clinically narscistic or sociopathic ( random population is no higher than 5%). How many in that group carry on to be family court judges? Its well understood that many psychologists, psychiatrist, social workers have their own deep seated personality and character issues ( as we all do )!. Throw radical feminist ideology on the fire and this is what we have.
                  My ex has BPD. She is one of the smartest people I have ever known( I was very attracted to this trait back in the day) and when we married arguably the most beautiful woman in the universe. Cluster B disorders are devastating to deal with and can seriously damage a new generation of children. I married her and had two beautiful children with her. I have to deal with my decisions and the consequences that flow from that and no one else carries that responsibility. NO ONE, not a judge not an assessor, not the OCL. This is my problem and although it would be nice to hand it off for an easy solution it's not going to happen in this lifetime. Do everything you can for your children's health and for your own health. Keep your wits about you. Study Sun Tzu if you wish to win in family court and MOST importantly get off the couch ( when your current stuff is stabilized an application in court takes most of your attention) and and fight for change. This system didn't show up overnight , it took generations to form and it also took generations to do nothing.

                  This afternoon I am, along with 3 others are meeting with two retired lawyers to talk about the feasibility of a class action suit directed at family law. Who knows this could be the start of a beautiful thing

                  Comment


                  • Only one word could describe my 3 years of dealing with the OCL: Useless.

                    What is the point of the OCL if they can't have the same power as a regular lawyer? To me, for a lawyer to take part in the OCL is akin to doing volunteer work, but the pay is better.

                    Comment


                    • Ocl

                      Word of warning for Fathers.
                      Almost every single person who works for the Office of the Children's Lawyer will make a recommendation for a mother regardless of the circumstances most of the time.

                      Most of the time a children's lawyer will regurgitate what ever a mother says and that is then assumed to be facts, evidence, and is then used by the judge to quote the OCL.

                      If you are a father don't have any faith in any accessors , social workers, children's lawyers etc.

                      There are a number that are so biased, you don't even want to read their reports, its sickening stuff.


                      There are some "information wanted" posts on www.OttawaMensCentre.com

                      that might have some relevance.






                      Originally posted by Heart-broken dad View Post
                      Only one word could describe my 3 years of dealing with the OCL: Useless.

                      What is the point of the OCL if they can't have the same power as a regular lawyer? To me, for a lawyer to take part in the OCL is akin to doing volunteer work, but the pay is better.

                      Comment


                      • lol.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                          lol.
                          I am with you there blink!

                          Comment


                          • In my experience, the parent who is hearing the "I don't want to leave here and go to Daddy's (or Mommy's I guess)" is often the parent who believes that the kid should have a say in making their own visiting arrangements.

                            Comment

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