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  • CP Wants Say in NCP's Vacation Time w/Child

    I would like your opinions on this...

    The custodial parent (CP) wants to have say in the non-custodial parent's (NCP) vacation time with the child.

    The CP has demanded (not even requested) that she be informed of all trips and activities the child will be involved in during his summer vacation with the NCP. She not only expects to be informed, she is demanding that she be consulted about the activities prior to any enrollment or confirmation of plans. She claims that as the CP, she has the right to be involved in such decision-making.

    The NCP has kindly reminded her that unless she helps share the costs of the activities (i.e. summer camps, excursions), what is planned during the NCP's vacation time with the child is up to the NCP's discretion. Especially if the NCP is covering the entire expense.

    The CP clearly indicated that she does not intent to help cover the costs of summer camps or activities during the NCP's vacation period with the child, but still expects that the NCP consults with her prior to enrolling the child in any camps or programs.

    What do you think of this expectation? Any suggestions for a response?

    PS: The NCP understands that he is to provide travel/contact information for any long-distance trips. But summer day camps? Come on!

  • #2
    The leading case with respect to the childrens activities on the NCP time is

    Young v. Young, [1993] 4 S.C.R. 3

    Supreme Court of Canada - Decisions - Young v. Young




    lv

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    • #3
      Thanks LV. I skimmed through the case, but I don't know how much of it we can use. It's religion that is the main concern in the case, whereas we're only trying to plan our summer holidays with the child without being told by the CP what we can and cannot do (with regards to signing the child up for summer daycamp).

      Basically, the CP is demanding that SHE decides what summer daycamp to enroll the child in while the child is with us, on the NCP's vacation time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by #1StepMom View Post
        ..
        The CP has demanded (not even requested) that she be informed of all trips and activities the child will be involved in during his summer vacation with the NCP. She not only expects to be informed, she is demanding that she be consulted about the activities prior to any enrollment or confirmation of plans. ...
        If she wants to know then tell her, not a big deal. If she has input, listen to it, if she disagrees with you, make a decision the way you like, considering her reasons, and then tell her your decision.

        She is the parent and if for whatever reason she wants to be involved and informed then I think it is reasonable to tell her what you know and listen to her input. You don't have to let her run the show, just listen to her and consider her input. Not a big deal if you don't make it one.

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        • #5
          What you say Bill makes perfect sense and I don't disagree. The only problem my husband is having, however, is that she is always demanding control in every way possible. Yet when he wants to give her his input, it's unwelcome (or if he even gets the chance to have his opinion heard, it's never considered) because "she's the primary parent, so she knows the child best and needs to be consulted about everything because she's the mother and knows what is in the child's best interest." These are her words, her reasons for wanting to know everything we do, think, or say to or around the child. My husband only wants to be able to be a father and make some decisions, even small decisions such as which daycamp to sign the child up for, all on his own without having to ask for her "permission." Do you know what I mean?

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          • #6
            Perhaps it is a subtle thing, but he can do as I suggested but with the right attitude it does not have feel like being controlled. It isn't asking for permission as the decision is truly his to make.

            If you are dealing with an unreasonable person, I think the best is to be reasonable about the things you can control and not play tit for tat. It is the most effective method to encouraging the other to be reasonable, but in the end if they are not, it can be calming thing to simply be reasonable or in other words:

            'God grant me the serenity
            to accept the things I cannot change;
            courage to change the things I can;
            and wisdom to know the difference'

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            • #7
              ...Living one day at a time;
              Enjoying one moment at a time;
              Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace.

              I will encourage my husband to heed your suggestion, Bill. Thanks. Hopefully it will bring us a moment's peace. ;-)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by #1StepMom View Post
                Thanks LV. I skimmed through the case, but I don't know how much of it we can use. It's religion that is the main concern in the case, whereas we're only trying to plan our summer holidays with the child without being told by the CP what we can and cannot do (with regards to signing the child up for summer daycamp).

                Basically, the CP is demanding that SHE decides what summer daycamp to enroll the child in while the child is with us, on the NCP's vacation time.
                I agree. Religion was the prime issue in Young as a whole but if you apply the same standard of "substantial harm" for an activity during the childs access to their NCP -- I don't think the CP may not have a stance. The onus is on the CP to demonstrate that the NCP's selection of Summer Daycamp during the child's access to their NCP would be substantial harm to the child.

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                • #9
                  I'm starting to see my husband's problem with this situation: Why does the CP have say in how the NCP spends time with the child, if the NCP is ensuring the child is always safe and properly cared for? Why does the NCP have to ask for "permission" on how to spend his time with his child, especially when he has joint custody? Why can the NCP not parent his child without the CP's constant involvement, when the CP resents same involvement from the NCP?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Might be a good idea for the NCP to canvas the CP in writing and request her reasons for such interference in the child's access time.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by logicalvelocity View Post
                      Might be a good idea for the NCP to canvas the CP in writing and request her reasons for such interference in the child's access time.
                      Been there, done that. It was the first thing we inquired. Her reasons for such interference are that she is "the primary caregiver, and as the primary caregiver and the child's mother, she knows the child best and is an integral part of the decision making process and will not be excluded from this responsibility." These are her exact words. And her answer to whether or not she intends to help cover the cost for these programs, if she is so eager to be part of the decision making process was clearly stated as "no." Yet, she still "expects" to be consulted with full disclosure of activities (dates, hours, costs, location, etc.) prior to us enrolling the child in them.

                      Personally, I don't think this is an issue of whether the child goes to hockey camp or soccer camp or swimming camp or whatever... it's an issue of her wanting control (an issue we've been fighting for years) and my husband wants nothing more than to put this constant-control-seeking of hers to rest. He just doesn't know how to go about it anymore. He's tried everything - it seems - and it just keeps getting worse, and the things she wants control over are getting more and more petty.

                      Any suggestions on how to put an end to this? Other than "giving in" as Bill suggested? (Which may be the only way we'll get a moment's peace at this point.)
                      Last edited by #1StepMom; 04-19-2009, 08:59 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It sounds like the CP and NCP don't have an amicable relationship. When there is a breakdown in communication then things have to be assumed and that's not acceptable. I have sole custody. Regardless of what costs what I would want to know what my NCP is doing with my kids when he has them. I say this because my NCP's opinion on what are appropriate activities for the children are not acceptable in my mind. For instance, he would have no problem taking the kids to an adult venue and then making them sit in a chair somewhere in a corner. I understand that's not the case with your NCP but as a mother I can assure you that we always want to know where are kids are and what they are doing, and most of the time it's not a control issue. I like to know what my kids are doing when they're in the backyard while I'm doing laundry. Also, wanting to know a child's schedule has nothing to do with money. If she's not contributing to a certain day camp fee, it sounds like she's frugal. At the same time, you can be frugal and still be a worry wort.

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                        • #13
                          Thank you for sharing your position, 2Boys. What you write makes perfect sense and if that were the case, my husband and I would have no problem providing the CP with this information. Heck, we have ALWAYS provided her with such information in the past - for her information. This was never an issue.

                          The issue is that all of a sudden, the CP is demanding that she be involved in deciding which summer camp/program to enroll the child in, while the child is with us on holidays. Yet she has never offered to involved my husband in these decisions when she signs the child up for a summer camp when the child is with her. He reasoning is that this is her custody time and she is paying for the full cost of the activity, so it is going to be her decision. But when we use this reasoning with her, it's "unacceptable" because she is "the primary parent and will not be excluded from important decisions." You see what I mean?

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                          • #14
                            Yes, I understand your position. Does she have sole custody or joint? I have sole custody. This may sound stubborn but when a judge grants sole custody then they feel that only one parent has the capacity to make all decisions, hence if he has a decision to make she should still have input. (Otherwise he or she would have granted joint custody). Again, the money means nothing here, it is the responsibility of the parent with sole custody to make or be aware of all decisions. If your NCP has joint custody then he should have equal say and if he doesn't want to fill her in on specifics and she doesn't like it then too bad. However, if she has sole custody like me, then she can demand to make a final decision on everything, without giving him the courtesy of the same. In some case, it's not nice though, especially if she is wishy washy. In others, it's just as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 2boys View Post
                              Yes, I understand your position. Does she have sole custody or joint? I have sole custody. This may sound stubborn but when a judge grants sole custody then they feel that only one parent has the capacity to make all decisions, hence if he has a decision to make she should still have input. (Otherwise he or she would have granted joint custody). Again, the money means nothing here, it is the responsibility of the parent with sole custody to make or be aware of all decisions. If your NCP has joint custody then he should have equal say and if he doesn't want to fill her in on specifics and she doesn't like it then too bad. However, if she has sole custody like me, then she can demand to make a final decision on everything, without giving him the courtesy of the same. In some case, it's not nice though, especially if she is wishy washy. In others, it's just as well.
                              My husband has JOINT CUSTODY of his son. Which allows him day-to-day decision-making ability and consultation with the CP with regards to major decisions (health, education, decision). We don't consider a summer daycamp to be a major decision. Obviously the CP does not feel this same way. Any ideas on how to approach this? 2Boys, what would you, as a CP, find a fair and suitable reason for the NCP to reject the CP's demand for such involvement?

                              Comment

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