Court Conference a waste of time : (

[cat40]

I recently attended a course conference re. child support and arrears settlement. My ex (despite having ample time did not have one of his proof of income with him) therefore only a portion of the settlement was accomplished The conference was delayed by 4 days giving him time to get this document and he still didn't have it. I really wanted this to be done and over with. There is no longer an issue of ongoing support b/c my son lives with him and is going to school and my daughter is living with me and going to school. So the biggest issue was the arrears....according to our separation agreement he owes me over 14,000 dollars in arrears. He has applied for a variance in child support stating that his income has dropped. He applied for this in September 2009 (years after he'd been paying the amount on the agreement.) Now he wants a re evaluation of the last 3 years and to only pay according to the income he allegedly made during that time. He offered a ridiculous sum of 2200 (he would write me a cheque that day) I said no and he went back to consult with his lawyer and they offered me 3500. That's only 1/4 of what he owes me and since i've already spent 7000 on lawyers fees it wouldn't even cover my expenses.
I've told my lawyer that I won't accept anything less than 7000 and that amount will increase according to my legal expenses . Neither one of us want to go to court...my reasoning is the cost....his is having to show t4's and bank statements which we both know will show he's making more money than he is. So far he's only shown income tax assessments and a financial form neither of which show his gross income. No matter what my lawyer says that if it goes to court I will come out with something and he'll be forced to pay all or a portion of the arrears.
Herein lies my dilema...I could pay the money to go to court which could expose his true income and i might get the full amount of arrears....or the judge may decide to have him pay only a portion of the arrears. My lawyer says it depends on the judge we get....some are tougher than others.....lawyer says it could be a 50/50 chance that i'll get the full amount. The thing is my ex is the one who took me to court so I'm just trailing along stressing over every court date....the whole thing is a huge stress but I don't know what else to do....financially i need to come out with at least enough to pay off my legal fees.......but he won't budge from this 3500 and its way off 14000. Am I being unreasonable in asking for 1/2 ? Has anyone gone to court in these circumstances and at least come out with the original arrears owing or do most judges look at past years lower income and retroactively lower the monthly payments even though he waited years to apply for a variance and didn't negotiate with me showing me proof of the lower income?

[cat40]

Just a ps to this thread

My son has threatened to go live with his father twice before...once for six weeks and once for 4 weeks....this is the 3rd time in 2 years that he's said he's moving in with his dad. He's 17 years old and generally when he comes back home he's very disrespectful and just generally nasty. Yesterday he came home accusing me of losing something he said belonged to a friend of his and demanded i pay 30 dollars to replace it. I know I haven't done anything with his belongings so I told him that no I wouldn't give him any money. He paced around the house ranting and raving and calling me every nasty name you could think of then walked in my room and spat twice on my rug....then starting talking about the court date details (something only his dad could have told him) I let my lawyer know what happened and shes drafting a letter for my ex and his lawyer that states he can't discuss any details of the court proceedings with his children, but I suspect the damage has been done...my son and I have always been quite close...hardly argue and he's NEVER done anything like this to me before : (

[Ihave2kidsIcannotsee]

does it matter when he applied for the variance? If his income was lowered then he would pay less would he not? so you think he should pay more because he didn't jump on the varience? umm it costs money to go to court to file the papers and get the varience? (unless you are not working and have time to do so yourself ) so why wouldn't he put it off. You are being unreasonable if his income was lowered then he should pay according to how much he made back then. He is not a money tree to pull the bucks off of he is a human that works to make a living and doesn't owe you more then you are supposed to recieve.

[lonelylemongirl]

My husband (and I for support) have been to court over something similar but in this case his ex-wife was incorrect in her calculations and at what age support for a child stopped ...

She lost and part of the reasons were as follows and I'm not sure if they all apply to you

'child support is the right of the child , not the parent - arrears are not automatic. The current circumstances and if the child (children) were deprived of a decent lifestyle when this money was due comes into play'

since your son lives with his father now (which my stepson did to) the judge refused to take money out of our household that supports him now to give it back to her household to enrich her life.. arrears only matter if the child still lives with you - unless it's spousal support that's in arrears.

If either child is over the age of majority then you will most likely not get the arrears back - you didn't say how old your daughter was.

You say that your husband is the one taking you to court for a variance - did you file court doc's for the arrears or have a lawyers letter sent to him at anytime prior to his application for variance.

as far as exposing his true income?? a Notice of Assessment from the gov't is all that is required to base child support on unless he owns a business or is self employed. you didn't mention if that was the case. Otherwise unless you have proof that he makes more than line 150 on his notice of assessment there is no reason he would have to provide his bank statements.

In our case (which isn't exactly the same) his exwife wanted arrears for the 2006 child support increase retroactive from 2008 for my stepson. She wanted it based on my husbands 2006 income instead of his 2005 income -he had a large severance in 2006 added to his T4 , and did pay her a lump sum of it then - she wanted to get a higher amount of back support. Anyways when she filed this it was after the boy lived with us and was over 18 years old..
The judge was very clear and irrate with her .. he made it clear to her that she was not the one that arrears (if any) was owed to. she kept saying 'he owes me' and 'I am entitled to'. Since the son did not live with her anymore there was no entitlement to back support after the fact. Plus it was her responsibility in 2006 to make sure she knew the tables when up and addressed the issue then with my husband. Arrears are only arrears if the child is in need of the support now. It's not quite the same since she was incorrect about the whole thing but your changes of getting all of the arrears is virtually nil and if he is given a variance or credit for over payments in the past based on his actual line 150 income you could end up with nothing , not even the $3500. In our case not only did his ex wife lose she had to pay our legal costs. What I can see potentially happening if your case is being awarded some sort of amount in arrears and him getting credit for overpayments and then being responsible for your own legal costs because both of you were partially successful in your case. With regards to your husband telling your son the details of the case - well it's not appropriate to drag the kids into the mess but it's not illegal so a letter from your lawyer isn't going to make a different . You unfortunately can't tell your ex husband what he can say or not say. I would say your changes are less than 50/50 .. we offered his ex $5000 to put an end to it all even though we knew she was wrong ( she was claiming about $13000 as well) and well she ended up with nothing and owing us in the end. Court is nasty and even if you are right and entitled to atleast 1/2 you might end up winning $7000 and owe more on legals to get it . It sucks but sometimes walking away is a better choice.

[Strotter]

My husband and I are finalizing the details on our Net Family Property Settlement. He is a long distance truck driver and claims that he can subtract an amount that is just over 10,000.00 for on the road expenses from his line 150 (total income) on his income tax return and pay child support based on this amount. for example, 88,000 (line 150) -10,000 = 78,000 and that, he claims, is the figure upon which child support would be determined. Where would I find documentation to either support or refute this claim? I have spoken with 2 accountants, 2 people from Revenue Canada, a law clerk in the Superior Court of Justice and my own lawyer. No one claims to know much about this. Any experts out there?

[dinkyface]

These are considered employment expenses - i.e. expenses that are required on order for him to do his job. Perhaps you would get a better answer if you ask instead about employment expenses in general (since not many lawyers/accountants have personal experience in trucking!).

Here's a quote from this CRA page http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4044/t4044-09e.pdf


"Form TL2,

Claim for Meals and Lodging Expenses

Form TL2 is used by transport employees, such as employees of airline, railway, bus, or trucking companies, as well as other transport employees who satisfy the conditions listed in the section called “Travelling expenses” in Chapter 3 which begins on page 8. Your employer has to sign the form. Most transport employees will complete Form TL2. You do not have to include this form with your return, but keep it in case we ask to see it."

I found also this, which backs up his claim: http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fcy-...ur/taiii1.html

[Strotter]

Thank you...your information is very helpful. Now I just need to know who to contact to determine whether child support is based on figure in line 150 or figure in line 150 minus expenses.

[dadtotheend]

Common sense tells me that if it costs him $10K to make $88K, then it should be $78K that CS is based on. If the courts says differently, then the court is an ass. If you were to insist that the CS that CS be based on $88K, well that would be unreasonable as all anything.

[Mess]

For some reason the actual Federal Child Support guidelines are offline. This information is supposed to be in section 3 (of the actual guidelines, not the tables.) Here is a .pdf of the workbook for calculating it yourself.

Especially look at the worksheet at the back, lines 2-10 which are amounts that may be deducted from line 150. These include the employment expenses on line 229 of the tax return.

So there you have it right from the Federal Department of Justice. You should print out the workbook and take it to you your lawyer's office, since they didn't know the answer.

[Strotter]

Thanks Mess!

I appreciate the link and your constructive information!

Strotter

[Strotter]

Dadtotheend...try to realize that not all of us seeking Child Support are out to screw their ex-partners. My own situation involves a lot of conniving and evasiveness from my ex, and believe it or not, when it comes to Child Support and a good many other things, it really is all about my child. Best of luck to you in your own situation.