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  • #16
    As a kid, I occasionally visited my mother in the ROH because she dealt with major depressions for most of my life. I am not at all uncomfortable with mentally ill people (quite the opposite) but I never know if I should have been shielded more or if the way it was handled with me was the most appropriate manner. I am very open with the kids about their Dads illness as I don't believe in keeping "secrets". They have visited in the past but often when their Dad had some time to stabilize from his meds first. It is never my intention to alienate them from their father. I know they love him and want to see him well.

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    • #17
      It sounds like this is an acute episode that hasn't had time to stabilize (if he was only admitted yesterday) and that's he's still pretty out of it (if he's aggressive and talking about his stepson despite being asked to stay off the topic). Is there some sort of interim measure that could be used so the kids could have contact with Dad, but not have to deal with full-on paranoia or psychosis (if it gets that bad) without an easy exit? Maybe a phone call or Skype, or drawing pictures/making cards for Dad? I appreciate that you want to foster the relationship between kids and their father, and you don't want to hide the fact of his illness, but if he's in really bad shape, in-person visits might actually hinder the relationship, because people in the midst of an episode can be pretty scary.

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      • #18
        My brother in law often denies his ex's access to their son whenever she's in a full on bipolar episode. The exception is when she has a parent of family member who can provide supervision. He does make up for it, with offering her lots of access outside of their schedule.

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        • #19
          This topic is impossible for us to give advice because we dont know the extent of his behaviors, outbursts, etc.

          But I'm sure the OP and the medical team does.

          The child comes first always. Just do me a favor .. if the counselor's and medical team say it will be okay for the children to visit... do NOT take one of the poster's advice and say "Hmm .. I have no time to find supervision..I have to go to work".

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          • #20
            Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
            The child comes first always. Just do me a favor .. if the counselor's and medical team say it will be okay for the children to visit... do NOT take one of the poster's advice and say "Hmm .. I have no time to find supervision..I have to go to work".
            No doubt, I certainly wouldn't let the fact that you are perhaps currently the only parent of these children going to work and putting food on their table affect your decision

            It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and understand the need to balance. Good luck.
            Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
              This topic is impossible for us to give advice because we dont know the extent of his behaviors, outbursts, etc.

              But I'm sure the OP and the medical team does.

              The child comes first always. Just do me a favor .. if the counselor's and medical team say it will be okay for the children to visit... do NOT take one of the poster's advice and say "Hmm .. I have no time to find supervision..I have to go to work".
              I feel like you misread once again.

              If the medical team says it is OKAY for the child to visit, then surely Dad is in a good frame of mind. If that is the case, it is still up to him to facilitate access. The burden does not just fall on Mom's shoulders. If Mom has her schedule set up such as when Dad is to have the kids she works, then she should not be expected to give up work to take the child to Dad. Dad still has a responsibility. Many people with mental illnesses are great parents. If Dad can't help facilitate access then he may miss out on some time.

              It can be assumed while Dad is in the hospital he isn't working, so Mom may not be receiving CS, so she may have to work harder to provide for the child. Sorry but its not just up to one parent to make sure both parents have access. Dad could have had a plan in action before now. He could have worked out with another family member that in the event he lands in the hospital, if the doctors deem him safe to be around the child, they will bring them to visit.

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              • #22
                If Dad can't help facilitate access then he may miss out on some time.
                Talk about hard love for a serious disorder. I dont think he should not see his own children just because he may be mentally incapable of setting everything up himself due to his condition. If he's deemed "safe" to be visited...that doesn't mean his cognitive functioning is organized enough to set up all of the supervision. Those are 2 different realms.

                If mom was the one with Schizophrenia and the Dr's said visits were okay but sh was unable to set up supervision herself....I would hope the dad wouldn't say.. "screw you .. I dont have time for this". What a dark angle IMO.

                It can be assumed while Dad is in the hospital he isn't working, so Mom may not be receiving CS, so she may have to work harder to provide for the child.
                1. Let's not make assumptions to help prove our point.
                2. Don't confuse CS with maximum contact principle and the CLRA rules for access. I'll never buy in to .. I work..therefore dad cant see his children..sorry.

                It's simple. If there's no harm to the children let him see them. If he is unable to arrange supervision due to his condition help him out. Who cares if she "doesn't have to if she doesnt want to".

                You're missing the point....not me. It's in the best interests of the children to see their father if it is deemed safe to do so in a controlled environment.

                In fact it's the law unless OP has an order stating otherwise. Help the children see their father if he can not arrange it all himself. Geez.

                It may not be her responsibility to arrange supervision or liaise with the hospital to do so .... BUT ..it IS her responsibility to let the children see their father if its safe. I hope she exercises the latter instead of saying she has a job and refuses to help make this happen.
                Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-22-2016, 01:41 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
                  Talk about hard love for a serious disorder. I dont think he should not see his own children just because he may be mentally incapable of setting everything up himself due to his condition.

                  If mom was the one with Schizophrenia and the Dr's said visits were okay but sh was unable to set up supervision herself....I would hope the dad wouldn't say.. "screw you .. I dont have time for this". What a dark angle IMO.


                  1. Let's not make assumptions to help prove our point.
                  2. Don't confuse CS with maximum contact principle and the CLRA rules for access. I'll never buy in to .. I work..therefore dad cant see his children..sorry.

                  It's simple. If there's no harm to the children let him see them. If he is unable to arrange supervision due to his condition help him out. Who cares if she "doesn't have to if she doesnt want to".

                  You're missing the point....not me. It's in the best interests of the children to see their father if it is deemed safe to do so in a controlled environment.

                  In fact it's the law unless OP has an order stating otherwise. Help the children see their father if he can not arrange it all himself. Geez.

                  It may not be her responsibility to arrange supervision or liaise with the hospital to do so .... BUT ..it IS her responsibility to let the children see their father if its safe. I hope she exercises the latter instead of saying she has a job and refuses to help make this happen.
                  I not once said she should withhold the child. My point is, Mom may not always be available to take the child. Are you suggesting if Mom has to work, she blow off work to take the child? Sorry but that's not the way most jobs work. Maybe in your position you can pick and choose when you come to work and in fact my position is very flexible too so I could pick in choose, but not everyone has the opportunity. If a parent has to decide whether to skip work, risking their job to take the child to the other parent for their parenting time, or finding the child a sitter and going to work to continue to support the child, they will NOT be faulted for working.

                  I get that you preach maximum contact and I agree 100% with that, but it is up to BOTH parents, it is also up to BOTH parents to financially support their children. Dad clearly isn't working while admitted, so right now Mom is the only one supporting the child. Your suggestion that she skip work in order of the maximum contact, doesn't fly.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                    I not once said she should withhold the child. My point is, Mom may not always be available to take the child. Are you suggesting if Mom has to work, she blow off work to take the child? Sorry but that's not the way most jobs work. Maybe in your position you can pick and choose when you come to work and in fact my position is very flexible too so I could pick in choose, but not everyone has the opportunity. If a parent has to decide whether to skip work, risking their job to take the child to the other parent for their parenting time, or finding the child a sitter and going to work to continue to support the child, they will NOT be faulted for working.

                    I get that you preach maximum contact and I agree 100% with that, but it is up to BOTH parents, it is also up to BOTH parents to financially support their children. Dad clearly isn't working while admitted, so right now Mom is the only one supporting the child. Your suggestion that she skip work in order of the maximum contact, doesn't fly.
                    Hospitals are open on the weekends...and they dont close after business hours.

                    I highly doubt OP works 24 hours/day 7 days/week. Is this your argument? Nobody has suggested that she skip work.

                    You need to stop with the CS, support thing. Do you know what ODSP is? I bet dad is contributing more than you think. But please....get off of the darn $$$ and back to maximum contact and CLRA rules.

                    Parents have responsibilities to adhere to maximum contact (if safe)...even when mental disorders are present. They cant just claim..."I work..so no". We all work....very bad excuse. Make time ... its for the kids.
                    Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-22-2016, 01:47 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
                      Hospitals are open on the weekends...and they dont close after business hours.

                      I highly doubt OP works 24 hours/day 7 days/week. Is this your argument?

                      You need to stop with the CS, support thing. Do you know what ODSP is? I bet dad is contributing more than you think. But please....get off of the darn $$$ and back to maximum contact and CLRA rules.

                      Parents have responsibilities to adhere to maximum contact (if safe)...even when mental disorders are present. They cant just claim..."I work..so no". We all work....very bad excuse. Make time ... its for the kids.
                      You're impossible. Hospitals have visiting hours, how do you know Mom doesn't work on weekends? My husband works every other weekend when we don't have his kids. Not everyone has a Monday-Friday job.

                      You seem to think Maximum contact is the only thing when it comes to the kids, but you are wrong. I highly doubt if your ex couldn't drive for whatever reason, you would give up your employment to take your daughter there.

                      Once again, I never said if Mom is able to take the child, not to, I stated, there are some reasons why Mom may not be able to, this could be due to work.

                      You know, its okay to not always be right

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                        how do you know Mom doesn't work on weekends?
                        How do you know she does?

                        You seem to think Maximum contact is the only thing when it comes to the kids, but you are wrong.
                        Actually Im not wrong. I can post the CLRA rules and caselaw, etc if you'd like. If there is no harm or safety concerns, the children have a right to see their father ... regardless of the parents employment hours. It's a super weak excuse IMO.
                        Again, I have a hard time believing that she works 24/7...with not an hour to spare.
                        I highly doubt if your ex couldn't drive for whatever reason, you would give up your employment to take your daughter there.
                        Actually, my ex made me take time off work by demanding the supervised access be mid-day (while she was unemployed).

                        And if my ex had a debilitating disorder such as schizophrenia you can bet your bottom dollar that I would make damn sure D4 had visits with her mother (if deemed safe) regardless of my job. D4 deserves it and so would mom. But logically, I know I would have time outside of work to do this. I guess Im made of different stuff.

                        You know, its okay to not always be right
                        It has nothing to do with being right .. it's about doing the right thing Berner. I don't believe I'm in the wrong about facilitating contact between a child and a parent if deemed safe. Saying there's not one hour in her life to do this is very weak and would never hold up in a court of law.
                        Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-22-2016, 02:06 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
                          How do you know she does?


                          Actually Im not wrong. I can post the CLRA rules and caselaw, etc if you'd like. If there is no harm or safety concerns, the children have a right to see their father ... regardless of the parents employment hours. It's a super weak excuse IMO.
                          Again, I have a hard time believing that she works 24/7...with not an hour to spare.

                          Actually, my ex made me take time off work by demanding the supervised access be mid-day (while she was unemployed).

                          And if my ex had a debilitating disorder such as schizophrenia you can bet your bottom dollar that I would make damn sure D4 had visits with her mother (if deemed safe) regardless of my job. D4 deserves it and so would mom. I guess Im made of different stuff.


                          It has nothing to do with being right .. it's about doing the right thing Berner. I don't believe I'm in the wrong about facilitating contact between a child and a parent if deemed safe. Saying there's not one hour in her life to do this is very weak and would never hold up in a court of law.
                          Please show me where I said if Mom worked 24/7, please show me where I said Mom should withhold access, please show me where I said Dad didn't have the right to see his child.

                          Once again making a mountain out of a mole hill. Good for you for having a flexible job, its nice, I agree. But not everyone has that opportunity and employers are not going to care about maximum contact. People can be fired for not showing up. So if Dad's access is on a Saturday, and Mom is scheduled to work, she may not be able to take time off work to take the child. However, I not once said, she couldn't arrange another time, I simply stated, she may not be able to make it on the access day.

                          Can you show me case law where an employer was ordered to allow an employee time off work to make sure their ex saw the children?

                          You are so good at attempting to twist people's words and you love to fight and argue...hmm... it all makes sense...

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                          • #28
                            Furthermore, OP has been "ordered" to give visitation. During the court appearance where she received this "order"....did she provide any evidence that it may be harmful for the child? If so, Im sure the judge examined it thoroughly before making the order. Did she refute the visitation in any way via Dr. reports, etc?

                            If this is "not" a safe environment in any way shape or form ... I retract all I said. But the judge seems to have thought it was okay after examining the evidence. In fact I didn't hear anything about "supervised" visits at all.

                            So if the OP doesn't want the visits to occur she better be able to prove why with documented evidence......and not "I have a job". There is a court order in place here.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                              Please show me where I said if Mom worked 24/7, please show me where I said Mom should withhold access, please show me where I said Dad didn't have the right to see his child.
                              You said mom shouldn't have to take off work to facilitate access. (This was an assumption).

                              If I have a court order to provide visitation to my ex. I cant say "Nope..I work"...this is "withholding". I'm not playing with your words. I'm letting you know what a judge would say. They even set up the DATE n court for visitation. Are you saying the OP made a date that she wasn't available?

                              Once again making a mountain out of a mole hill. Good for you for having a flexible job, its nice, I agree.
                              Im merely stating my opinions and facts I've learned about with the CLRA on my journey's. I have an 8:00 - 3:00pm. Not very flexible.

                              But not everyone has that opportunity and employers are not going to care about maximum contact.
                              Employers may not...but judges do. Hospitals have a wide array of flexible visiting hours.....so Im still trying to figure out your angle here.

                              Can you show me case law where an employer was ordered to allow an employee time off work to make sure their ex saw the children?
                              I've not once said that she needs to take off work. That's only been you Berner. You're the one twisting my words. I said that Im sure she can find time outside of her work hours. IN FACT... she agreed to these dates herself with the judge at the hearing. I can't understand your position .. help me out.
                              However, I not once said, she couldn't arrange another time, I simply stated, she may not be able to make it on the access day.
                              Agreed. When in court getting the order for visitation .. that would be a great time to get times/dates that work for everybody I would assume.

                              You are so good at attempting to twist people's words and you love to fight and argue...hmm... it all makes sense...
                              I haven't twisted any words and certainly am not here to fight. This is a very interesting topic to me and I feel for the OP. You don't need to go below the belt with the "it all makes sense now" stuff just because we're maturely discussing a complex situation. I'm sorry you feel that way.
                              Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-22-2016, 02:38 PM.

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                              • #30
                                No where did Kate101 say she was ordered to take the child. She stated, his court ordered visitation was Saturday or Sunday. So if that's the case, Dad may have been the one to pick the child up, doesn't mean Mom was ordered to take the child to Dad.

                                There are a lot of unknowns here but you can't just keep taking about maximum contact without knowing details.

                                My point that I am stating for the last time because I am tired of you stating maximum contact is the following ;

                                Dad has court ordered access, unless mom has been ordered to provide transportation, if she had prior obligations, she is under no obligation to take the child. If mom is able to find a visitation time that works within her schedule and the hospitals visiting house and health professionals have deemed Dad fit for a visit, she should take the child to see his father, but if she has to risk her job to do so, that is not in the children's best interest and Dad may have to go without this weekend.

                                Missing one access day because mom has to work is far from denying access and not follow maximum contact.

                                Have a good day LF.

                                Comment

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