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Divorce Support This forum is for discussing the emotional aspects of divorce: stress, anger, betrayal of trust and more.

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  #911  
Old 06-02-2015, 12:33 PM
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LovingFather32 LovingFather32 is offline
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Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
Oh sweet jesus can you all just let it go? You dont like LF32, his situation, his decisions, his statements, his life, his words, his meaning of existence etc. WE GET IT. Heres the rub though, you dont have to read this forum, post, come back, fight, make pronouncements or even bother to click read. Go participate in another thread. Start your own. Find a whole new forum for people like you. Why do you feel the need to hijack a thread where others are actually enjoying their participation? (Thats rhetorical by the way).
Well said, I must say.

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Your last post made me smile
You know I like to make you smile Jan.

P.S - PM box cleared.
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  #912  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:09 PM
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BTW.. regarding case-building .. a poster once told me:

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Originally Posted by OntarioDaddyMan View Post
Somethingelse- my point was that he can prove it and that's what will matter. Facts.

My ex is stonewalling me now. Assuming that this was legal advice to the ex.

In the end, as Long as you can prove ( through factual evidence ) that you are going above and beyond and the ex is still stonewalling can only be a good thing in your favor.


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Thank you for encouraging me to build my case. I agree with you 100%.

Also, regarding the antics on the forum, the same poster had some great advice:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OntarioDaddyMan View Post
I find that this forum is turning out to be more of a Soap Opera where ones point of view or question turns into a bitch fest between senior members.
There are still people out there who turn to this forum for assistance.
Agreed. The back and forth's need to come to a halt...in any thread. I will refer to Rockscan's last post above as I can't say it any better.
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  #913  
Old 06-02-2015, 09:05 PM
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Can we move on now?
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  #914  
Old 06-02-2015, 09:50 PM
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Father's day coming up. The Sunday is on her weekend. This should be fun.

Been so many access denials I cant count them anymore. How long is usually asked. The day I would assume?
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  #915  
Old 06-02-2015, 10:18 PM
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Here's an interesting case. Caselaw like this teach parents that lying, abduction, false allegations and denying the other parent to be in the other's life will grant them "CUSTODY". Although I understood the judges decision, there HAS to be another way. Parent's cant keep using the system to wreak havoc like this.

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc...&resultIndex=2

Quote:
[4] The separation has been a very bitter one from the Mother’s perspective. The Mother clearly has done everything she can against the Father and to prevent a relationship between the Father and Ihsan, without regard to the fact it would be in the best interests of Ihsan to have a relationship with her biological father. I do not come to this conclusion lightly but, it is clear from the affidavits and material before this court that the Father has attempted and wants to maintain a relationship with Ihsan. However, this relationship has not happened because of the Mother’s actions. The Mother’s affidavits took every possible opportunity to disparage, denigrate and paint the Father as a terrorist, abusive person, thief, fraud and a liar.

[5] The Mother missed no opportunity to try to harm the Father’s interests or have him removed from her and her daughter’s life.

[13] There is little doubt that the lack of contact between the Father and Ihsan was due to the Mother’s interference and refusal to let the Father have a relationship with Ishan. The Mother’s affidavits do not deal with the Father’s attempts to maintain a relationship with Ihsan.
Quote:
There is no disagreement between the Mother and the Father that as a result of the Father’s 10 day trip to Saudi Arabia to see Ihsan, the Father only got to see Ihsan for 15 to 30 minutes.
Oh .. and this is what ex is trying to do .. but not with a professional. If it were with a qualified professional D4 would be deemed fine. But ex's witness counselor I'm sure could produce something magnificent for her.

Quote:
[28] The Mother states Ihsan became ill after her visit with her Father, she couldn’t sleep and she had headaches. According to the Mother Ihsan remained ill for several months. The Mother took Ihsan to a psychiatrist. The Mother produced a “Preliminary Medical Report” dated October 30, 2008. The doctor had first seen Ihsan on October 30, 2008, which was more than 4 months after the Father had been to Saudi Arabia and had briefly seen his daughter. This Preliminary Medical Report describes Ihsan’s medical condition as “separation anxiety”. The Mother was with Ihsan when she went to the see the doctor who produced this report.
Gee thanks Mr. Psychiatrist. I hope the report touched on at least some of the repercussions on the child from daddy being erased. I wonder what schhol of thought the psychiatrist studied.

I really like the following:

Quote:
[46] The Mother fails to comprehend the emotional harm she has done to Ihsan in prohibiting, discouraging or failing to encourage access to her Father for years. This concern was described very well by Justice Himel in Orszak v. Orszak (2000), 2000 CanLII 22529 (ON SC), 8 R.F.L. (5th) 350 (S.C.J.) where she stated:

I should also emphasize that the failure to permit access by a child to a parent may result in emotional harm to that child. Emotional harm has now been included in the recent amendments as one of the grounds for finding a child is in "need of protection" under the Child and Family Services Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. C.11 as amended (March 31, 2000). The consequences of wrongful denial of access are also the subject of enactments to s. 34 of the Children's Law Reform Act. Although those provisions are not yet in force as of April, 2000, they are awaiting proclamation.


What did the judge think?

Quote:
[77] In this case, Ihsan would have a much better opportunity to build relationships with both parents if the Father were to be the custodial parent. Clearly, the Mother would have the financial means to maintain contact and have access to Ihsan for significant periods of time throughout the year. On the other hand, if the Mother is the custodial parent, the Father has limited financial resources to travel to Saudi Arabia and has travel restrictions due to his nationality.
Hey, the mother did a great job I guess. The judge states that although she caused all of this and will not support a relationship b/w dad and child ... well .. just read the following.

Quote:
[79] The difficulty with this case is that the psychological and physical distress to Ihsan that appears to be undeniable when the Father has attempted to exercise access. This sense of abandonment Ihsan feels is a significant factor to take into account. No doubt this feeling by Ihsan is directly attributable to the Mother’s conduct. I raise this, not because the Mother’s conduct is directly relevant, but because it impacts on the best needs of Ihsan. As stated in Gordon v. Geortz (1996), 1996 CanLII 191 (SCC), 19 R.F.L. (4th) 177 (S.C.C.), parental conduct, no matter how reprehensible, does not enter into the analysis unless it relates to the ability of that parent to meet the needs of the child. Section 24(3) of the Children’s Law Reform Act reaffirms this concept.

[80] Unfortunately, as much as the Mother’s behaviour has been reprehensible in this case, and should not be permitted to have created a situation favourable to her case at the cost of Ihsan’s relationship with her Father, the fact is this Court has no choice but look to the future and determine what is in Ihsan’s best interests.

[84] Hence, the dilemma in this case. In my view, the negative impact on Ihsan is minimized by allowing Ihsan to continue to be in the Mother’s custody. Given the above factors, I must conclude that it is in Ihsan’s best interest to remain in the custody of the Mother.
And this my friend's, is why the process is flawed. I get the child will need time to transition back. But continuing to allow her on her spree of erasing the father will have more long term effects than meets the eye.

As the judge writes:

Quote:
Had there been any other way to achieve Ihsan’s best interests than by letting Ihsan remain in her Mother’s custody, I would have done so without hesitation. However, the court’s desire to sanction the Mother is irrelevant when faced with the only way to meet Ihsan’s best interests is to continue the custodial arrangements and permit her to go with her Mother, the very person who caused the short term and likely long term issues for Ihsan.
I smell some crazy parental alienation going on in this case. But it wasn't touched upon at all.

I get the judges decision .. I truly do. The child came first. But what is this teaching other parents out there?

Abduct, lie, false allegations, deny access. And guess what .. you will achieve custody. Dont forget to make sure your child becomes very mentally ill in the process, especially directly after visits with dad. Pretty gross stuff here .. but the judge had no place to go .. stuck in the mud. Clearly he didnt agree with the mom's actions. Didn't matter. STOP REINFORCING these kinds of actions. What is this teaching parent's?

Wait 10 years when the child is furious with mom for doing this. There will be more distress than the judge could have ever dreamed of.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 06-02-2015 at 10:29 PM.
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  #916  
Old 06-03-2015, 10:25 AM
rockscan rockscan is offline
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My partners lawyer told us about a case on parental alienation where the teen ended up killing himself after being ordered back to his father. Lawyer said judges are super careful now about making such a bold decision especially with emotionally unstable ages. Which might be a factor.

Some kids never see what their parents have done. My brother is mid 30's and he still agrees with my mothers actions. Not that my father was right and he should have a relationship with him--that my mother was justified in alienating us. You can have all the judgements in the world but when a split happens at a specific time in a childs life, they dont always have the emotional fortitude to comprehend the legal aspect of it. Kids are like little machines that are programmed to behave a certain way. You try to reformat and they are liable to crash. Judges have to consider this.

I agree though that there needs to be better punishments outside of reversing custody though. But again, people get away with murder...
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  #917  
Old 06-03-2015, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
My partners lawyer told us about a case on parental alienation where the teen ended up killing himself after being ordered back to his father. Lawyer said judges are super careful now about making such a bold decision especially with emotionally unstable ages. Which might be a factor.

Some kids never see what their parents have done. My brother is mid 30's and he still agrees with my mothers actions. Not that my father was right and he should have a relationship with him--that my mother was justified in alienating us. You can have all the judgments in the world but when a split happens at a specific time in a child's life, they don't always have the emotional fortitude to comprehend the legal aspect of it. Kids are like little machines that are programmed to behave a certain way. You try to reformat and they are liable to crash. Judges have to consider this.

I agree though that there needs to be better punishments outside of reversing custody though. But again, people get away with murder...
Totally agree. I understand the judges decision and when you read it you can so tell he didn't want custody to go the way it went. In the end it was the correct decision.

But wow .. it really opened up my eyes to the fact that abduction, false allegations, alienation, etc ... does get custody sometimes. Which was the mom's ultimate goal from the outset. Perhaps this encourages dad's to start abducting, making false allegations and hiding first ... to get custody. Not good behavior .. but it seems to work

In contrast to some other poster's thoughts, this is where the system becomes broken, regardless of how it's used .. IMO.

Keep in mind Im not saying the mom should be punished or persecuted per se .. as that may not benefit the child. I'm not sure what needs to be done. All I know is that something does!!

This father had done nothing to lose his right to be a father .. but more importantly, the CHILD has done nothing wrong to lose her right's to HAVE a father. (The latter emphasized!!)

The mother on the other hand has done everything to destroy the relationship and wins all.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 06-03-2015 at 12:03 PM. Reason: (addition)
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  #918  
Old 06-03-2015, 12:24 PM
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This is a whole other discussion for a whole other thread...

As a non divorced non parent I see the flaws. As a policy person I see the flaws and the complications with fixing said flaws. As a "child of divorce" I lived the flaws.

Theres no perfect answer. Until the human race follows laws, lives a moral life, shows compassion for others, its going to be this way. Sadly. In my view, its the people who feel they can live above the law who are clogging the system and complicating the process. And that includes everyone--access deniers, support avoiders, abusers, kidnappers, liars, etc. There are divorced people out there who work together and are reasonable, whats in their moral code that makes that happen?

Oh and as the lawyer said "canlii is only a small portion of select cases. There are MANY stories you will never hear."
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  #919  
Old 06-03-2015, 05:19 PM
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I suspect that in cases which take many years to sort of custody through court, the judges see that the children are doing ok and are reluctant to make radical changes. I really feel that custodial parents count on this and merely try to drag things out with the confidence that judges don't want to upset children.
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  #920  
Old 06-03-2015, 09:35 PM
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Or until their kids are old enough "to have a say".
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