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Divorced Related Malicious Mother Syndrome

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  • #46
    What bothers me is that LF claims to have psych education but utilizes references that he finds 'most impressive' that are over 20 years old.

    I would be more likely to have a conversation on relevant, current information. Soooo much has changed in 20 years. Perhaps there is no current research on parent alienation as it has been determined not to be a prevalent problem?

    Please show me statistics from 2014. Perhaps when all you have is a hammer, every thing looks like a nail?

    Additionally, in his very first post in this thread, he uses an example that is outdated and mother bashing. I don't care if he gave preamble. A professional would not use outdated biased research and simply ask people to relabel it to suit themselves.

    At the very bottom of the very link he posts, Dr. Turkat acknowledges that the original research was ONLY done with mothers. How baised is that? When they finally got around to looking at fathers, they realized the topic was gender neutral. LF may say "Oh, yes. I said that!" but still posted the old, mother bashing info. Did he not read to the bottom of his own info? I did.

    At the bottom of the link LF posted is this more current definition of parent alienation that is, in fact, gender neutral. Why didn't he use that? Here it is.

    Table I. Diagnostic Criteria for Divorce-Related Malicious Parent Syndrome

    A parent who unjustifiably punishes his or her divorcing or divorced spouse by:

    · Attempting to alienate their mutual child(ren) from the other parent

    · Involving others in malicious actions against the other parent

    · Engaging in excessive litigation

    The parent specifically attempts to deny the child(ren):

    · Regular uninterrupted visitation with the other parent

    · Uninhibited telephone access to the other parent

    · Participation by the other parent in the child(ren)'s school life and extra-curricular activities

    The pattern is pervasive and includes malicious acts towards the other parent including:

    · Lying to the children

    · Lying to others

    · Violations of law

    The disorder is not specifically due to another mental disorder, although a separate mental disorder may co-exist.

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    • #47
      Sorry, one more thing.

      I would also appreciate clinical research that does not originate from Dr. Turkat or Dr. Gardner as their current research may only be trying to prove their previous work.

      If this is indeed a common problem facing many divorcing parents, there should be more case studies, etc.

      Comment


      • #48
        Some of the best reads are the ones 20 years ago...and the most influential on the scientific community. (This goes without saying right?)

        Yep...Sad And Tired's right. I probably don't even have an education. We're back on that card are we? lol Knock my posts, knock my education .. do what you have to do S&T. lol

        I found the article to be great if you could substitute the word mother for parent .. which Sad And Tired .. I must say .. you're having a difficult time with. It's still all about gender to you. Sad really!

        Merry X-Mas Sad And Tired. Hope your holidays are rocking.
        Last edited by LovingFather32; 12-28-2014, 09:23 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
          Some of the best reads are the ones 20 years ago...and the most influential on the scientific community. (This goes without saying right?)

          Yep...Sad And Tired's right. I probably don't even have an education. We're back on that card are we? lol Knock my posts, knock my education .. do what you have to do S&T. lol

          I found the article to be great if you could substitute the word mother for parent .. which Sad And Tired .. I must say .. you're having a difficult time with. It's still all about gender to you. Sad really!

          Merry X-Mas Sad And Tired. Hope your holidays are rocking.
          Should I respond to the above (which is already added to) or wait until you edit it five times to add the clever comebacks you think of later?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
            Some of the best reads are the ones 20 years ago...and the most influential on the scientific community. (This goes without saying right?)

            No. I couldn't disagree more. 20 year old data on just about anything is just that - old. Imagine what they knew about autism two decades ago! There were still tender years supporters then. Geez.

            Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
            Yep...Sad And Tired's right. I probably don't even have an education. We're back on that card are we? lol Knock my posts, knock my education .. do what you have to do S&T. lol
            Not knocking your posts or education. I am wondering why you don't use your education for relevancy here.

            Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
            I found the article to be great if you could substitute the word mother for parent .. which Sad And Tired .. I must say .. you're having a difficult time with. It's still all about gender to you. Sad really!

            Merry X-Mas Sad And Tired. Hope your holidays are rocking.
            It isn't actually about gender at all. That is what I am trying to say. The information was available to you in a gender neutral format and you chose not to use it. Interesting.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by arabian View Post
              Actually if you look up the source cited by the OP in this thread you will find many related research links.

              ----------
              LF32's first paragraph on this thread: "This is a topic worth getting in to albeit I want to say upfront that I feel the syndrome would be better off named" Divorce Related Malicious Parent Syndrome". The following are some information found from the "Journal Of Family Violence"...."
              ----------

              Interesting subject which appears to intersect with many disorders which, indeed, are in the DSM and these are not considered voo-doo or junk science by the courts in Family Law IMO.
              Jumping back into the conversations because I find DSM revisions really interesting.

              I don't think "malicious parent syndrome" (or mother syndrome, or whatever) will ever make it into the DSM for a couple of reasons. The first is etiology - diagnostic categories aren't tied to life events, they're tied to co-occurring dysfunctions or disturbances which may have many different causes and/or precipitating events. That's why we have categories like "reactive depression" rather than "job loss depressive disorder" or "broke up with girlfriend disorder". There was controversy over including PTSD as a separate category because it was seen to be too event-specific, even though it only specifies "trauma", not a particular kind of trauma.

              The second reason is parsimony - to keep the DSM from growing exponentially, new categories should only be added if they describe disorders or dysfunctions which are not already accounted for by existing diagnoses. The behaviors described in this "malicious parent syndrome", if they were severe enough to be clinically significant rather than someone just being a jerk, would appear to be accounted for by existing diagnoses such as "antisocial personality disorder" or "borderline personality disorder". Divorce is one of the contexts in which these disorders manifest themselves, it is not a disorder in itself.

              Finally, there's the reality that not all jerk-ish or a$$hole-ish behaviors that people exhibit are clinically significant. Sometimes someone who is being a selfish and hostile jerk is just that, a selfish and hostile jerk, not a person with a diagnosable psychiatric problem. DSM diagnoses are generally pretty tight in terms of frequency and severity of symptoms, to prevent everyone from diagnosing everyone else they don't like as suffering from a mental illness.

              Comment


              • #52
                Firstly. Thank you Stripes for the mature, intelligent post touching on many great points worthy of discussion. It's appreciated.

                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                I don't think "malicious parent syndrome" (or mother syndrome, or whatever) will ever make it into the DSM for a couple of reasons. The first is etiology - diagnostic categories aren't tied to life events, they're tied to co-occurring dysfunctions or disturbances which may have many different causes and/or precipitating events..
                I respectfully disagree. (Not saying Im right an you're wrong ..political forum).

                "Relational Problems" is already a v-code in the DSM. They're working on updating it right now to give it specific diagnostic criteria. PAS, Malicious parent syndrome, etc have multi-causality for sure. Would never argue you on that. But it's this v-code on "relational problems" that will change how the DSM looks at this multi-dimensional causality. It will finally look at relational factors in "divorce-type" contexts. It will analyze these interactions "between/among" instead of just the individual.

                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                The second reason is parsimony - to keep the DSM from growing exponentially, new categories should only be added if they describe disorders or dysfunctions which are not already accounted for by existing diagnoses..
                Here we talk about comorbidity. Many in the DSM meet criteria for 2 disorders such as OCD with comorbid depression. There certainly could be an underlying comorbid antisocial personality disorder with say PAS.

                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                Divorce is one of the contexts in which these disorders manifest themselves, it is not a disorder in itself..
                You're correct. Divorce is not a disorder. But it's widely known as a "trigger". As a trigger, the maladaptive behaviors spawned from it (gender neutral) are illustrating to us just how bad we have to update the DSM and include diagnostic criteria for the "relational problems" (v codes).

                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                DSM diagnoses are generally pretty tight in terms of frequency and severity of symptoms, to prevent everyone from diagnosing everyone else they don't like as suffering from a mental illness.
                From what I've read up on it so far there seem to be pretty specific, tight knit, consistent behaviors seen in PAS and other's similar. Once a few years go by and the reliability/validity becomes more significant than we can rule out that "he was just a jerk" theory and replace it with "the 250 parents studied all exhibited the exact same symptom clusters for PAS, to a tee".

                It's just too early. I agree it shouldn't be in this instant. Just as PTSD was ridiculed and called 4 different names (specific to the type of trauma) before it finally was entered in the DSM, I predict this will do the same.

                Perhaps it will have different names, different modes of discovering etiology .. perhaps it will be completely fine-tuned. But like it or not, divorce is a trigger for trauma. Just as bombs from the war or getting bitten by a dog are triggers for PTSD. Certain behaviors (using children as weapons, etc) are becoming disgustingly specific, to the point where psychological intervention is required. This is all IMO of course.

                Comment


                • #53
                  I found this to be a good read. It discusses the "relational problems" and v codes I speak of.

                  Relationship problems and the DSM:needed improvements and suggested solutions

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