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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #21  
Old 02-13-2020, 02:17 PM
iona6656 iona6656 is offline
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Originally Posted by fairlight View Post
Actually, studies show that abusive men overwhelmingly obtain some sort of favourable outcome in family court. They don't play by the rules and are willing to lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want and no one holds them accountable.

I don't think we should be arresting people for minor incidents of assault unless there is clear evidence and the Crown believes they could obtain a conviction at trial. Something like 50% of DV charges are resolved by way of peace bond/withdrawal of charges. The family is broken up and forced into family court to resolve their issues. I was in an abusive marriage for years and stayed in order to avoid the circus of family court because I knew he would never let go. But eventually someone else called police and it was out of my hands.

I actually believe it is unjust to remove a man from his home and break up his family, only to make him do counselling and sign a peace bond. That's BS. If he committed a serious act of assault, he should be IN JAIL. If there isn't enough to put him in jail, then leave him alone. Sooner or later, he will do something and will end up in jail. And then the family issues will be largely resolved because he is IN JAIL.

The current DV laws are intended to try to reform abusers which statistics show is largely unsuccessful. The children aren't safer once the family is broken up- often they are in more danger, especially if the DV charges are "minor". Here's some guys who had a history of "minor" DV (withdrawal of charges and peace bond): Trent Butt, Andrew Berry, Roopesh Rajkumar. Google their names and find out what happened to the kids.

When lying is rewarded in court, regardless of whether it's abusive men or vindictive women, the foundation of the system is corrupt.
+1 on all of this.

However, people lying about abuse allegations is not the point of this thread.

LovingDad- you proved your own point. Patently false accusations tend to come out over the course of the matter.

The concern is how the courts need to treat abuse perpetrators. They rarely do enough- and in my experience- if you have money you can either get them to do something (if you're the victim)- or if you're the abuser- you can get the courts to do nothing.
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  #22  
Old 02-13-2020, 02:20 PM
iona6656 iona6656 is offline
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Originally Posted by rvalentines View Post
Yes! The poster is right!
Let's imprison men for 10 years for slapping their wives, ensure they never get to see the kids, the wife to get exclusive possession of the house, all the while the father keeps paying child support.

We need to do more in this country to protect women's fundamental right of child support until the kids are 24 years old because during separation process they remember they were assaulted 5 years back.

Kind of like this case:
1. The Parties marries in 2010.
2. The parties entered into a separation agreement in 2013 for custody.
3. Issues arise in Spring of 2018 regarding custody.
4. Then, Fall of 2018, the father was charged with Assault, based upon allegations of historic domestic violence made by the mother.
5. The Mother then uses the bail conditions (No contact order) as leverage to dictate to the Father that he cannot enroll their son in after-school program!
http://canlii.ca/t/j3vkl
really. you expect anyone to take you seriously when you casually throw this out there?

so where's the line? dad can casually slap mother...but maybe not strangle her? what about calling her derogatory names? surely he's still a good father, right?? I mean- c'mon. A little pushing never damaged anyone.
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  #23  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:20 AM
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Tayken Tayken is offline
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Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
really. you expect anyone to take you seriously when you casually throw this out there?

so where's the line? dad can casually slap mother...but maybe not strangle her? what about calling her derogatory names? surely he's still a good father, right?? I mean- c'mon. A little pushing never damaged anyone.
The challenge is that each case is unique and each situation as well. It takes a good justice and evidence to sort it all out.

https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/...ad.php?t=16809
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  #24  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
The challenge is that each case is unique and each situation as well. It takes a good justice and evidence to sort it all out.

https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/...ad.php?t=16809
Yeah- here's the thing- the "learned" judges- aren't the ones I trust on whether a person's propensity for violence makes them a capable parent. This is idea "well he/she was only abusive to the mother/father- but not the children, therefore he/she must be an okay parent" is frankly bullshit. There are a ton of studies that show that abusive partners don't make great parents in the long run. Does it mean they should be cut out of the kids lives? Absolutely not- but if you're going to go with the "best interests of the child"- there a necessary weighing of parental rights v. best interests of the kid.

For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6588710/

there's a professor out of the University of New Brunswick who has compiled extensive studies about the intersection of Intimate Partner Violence and family law.
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  #25  
Old 02-14-2020, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by iona6656 View Post
Yeah- here's the thing- the "learned" judges- aren't the ones I trust on whether a person's propensity for violence makes them a capable parent. This is idea "well he/she was only abusive to the mother/father- but not the children, therefore he/she must be an okay parent" is frankly bullshit. There are a ton of studies that show that abusive partners don't make great parents in the long run. Does it mean they should be cut out of the kids lives? Absolutely not- but if you're going to go with the "best interests of the child"- there a necessary weighing of parental rights v. best interests of the kid.

For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6588710/

there's a professor out of the University of New Brunswick who has compiled extensive studies about the intersection of Intimate Partner Violence and family law.
You are going to rely upon a study from Hungary? Ok... They elected Viktor Orbán??? Feel free to Google what is actually going on in Hungary. Hardly a model for any study to be used in western society.

The reality is that there are lots of studies but, under the rule of law, the courts decide. Who do you trust if you don't trust the judicial system? Honestly? I am confused by your statement.
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  #26  
Old 02-15-2020, 07:04 PM
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My lawyer told me that only 5% of cases that make it to family court are actually cases involving real and potentially deadly domestic violence. She also said because these cases are so few, the courts are not at all prepared to deal with them. The judicial system is designed for your average acrimonious divorce case with the common false allegations of abuse. Yes there are many, many instances of false allegations but when it comes to that 5% who are true allegations, even proven allegations, judges are not prepared to deal with it. This is why children and parents fighting in family court still get murdered by an unstable litigant.
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  #27  
Old 02-16-2020, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Stillbreathing View Post
My lawyer told me that only 5% of cases that make it to family court are actually cases involving real and potentially deadly domestic violence. She also said because these cases are so few, the courts are not at all prepared to deal with them. The judicial system is designed for your average acrimonious divorce case with the common false allegations of abuse. Yes there are many, many instances of false allegations but when it comes to that 5% who are true allegations, even proven allegations, judges are not prepared to deal with it. This is why children and parents fighting in family court still get murdered by an unstable litigant.
Your statistics are wrong as there were only 651 homicides in all of Canada in 2018. Even if every single one of those was from domestic violence they still wouldn't make up even the 5% you are trying to quote.

Again? If you are going to quote statistics sources are always good?
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  #28  
Old 02-16-2020, 12:51 AM
fairlight fairlight is offline
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If a person is violent toward their partner, they are not a safe person for their children either. End of story, full stop.

Another sad story unfolding in the GTA:
https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...e-little-keira
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  #29  
Old 02-16-2020, 07:57 PM
Stillbreathing Stillbreathing is offline
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Tayken I quoted my lawyer not a research study. You are missing the point which is there are exponentially more instances of false allegations than there are legitimate ones (whether 95 to 5 or 99 to 1). The legitimate cases of DV which can lead to deadly outcomes are comparatively rare. However, that being said, the real tragedy lies in the fact that these are largely preventable deaths as research by the death review committees in various provinces have found. There are distinct warning signs in all of the cases they studied.

To the OP, yes it is time the family court did more to prevent these tragedies and in doing so they will also assist those people negatively impacted by false allegations.

The above article from the Toronto sun is yet another tragic example of how the family court failed a family in the most horrific manner. Suggested interventions include:
- expediated time to trial just like criminal court
- training judges and custody assessors in performing lethality risk assessments
- counselling made available to all parties involved in litigation

All sound suggestions which could reduce conflict and save lives

I also feel the judges who preside over cases such as the above should be held accountable for the part they played in the deaths. If your surgeon screws up and your child dies on the operating table, you can sue them and file a complaint. If they are found negligent they are reprimanded, may be forced to take more education or lose their privileges to practice medicine. Judges should be similarly investigated and reprimanded .

Last edited by Stillbreathing; 02-16-2020 at 08:04 PM.
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  #30  
Old 02-16-2020, 09:01 PM
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I would recommend reading the postings on CanLII for the matter you are citing from the articles from the Sun etc...

Brown v. Kagan, 2018 ONSC 564 (CanLII)
Brown v. Kagan, 2018 ONSC 6669 (CanLII)
Kagan v. Brown, 2019 ONCA 495 (CanLII)

I have... Its a sad state but, some of the best professionals the GTA has to offer were involved. Dr. Sutton is no walk in the park when it comes to Section 30 assessments.

Dr. Sutton spent 230 hours on the matter and produced a 220-page report. It is the second-longest Section 30 he has ever done in his 30-year career. Dr. Sutton testified that the two home visits with these parties were the most pleasurable home visits he had ever had.

I await the police investigation before coming to any conclusions as to if that matter was murder or an accident.

This matter was before the courts on appeal in June of 2019 and the respondent father was awarded 10,000 in costs by “M. Tulloch J.A.”, “L.B. Roberts J.A.” and “B.W. Miller J.A.”

The articles I have read on this subject all talk to court orders not posted to CanLII. The last was the appeal in June of 2019.

It is a very sad situation indeed. But, its a very complex matter that has had numerous court attendances and many experts involved. There is significantly more to unravel in this matter than can be covered by news articles.
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