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damned if you do....

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  • damned if you do....

    This system is so busted. My heart breaks for those on here going down the court road for the first time. Don't do it if you can avoid it.
    I know I have posted this before but I am thinking of going it alone again. I don't qualify for LA (despite a very low income). I have self-repped on one matter and was quite successful but my ex was also self-repped.
    In a nutshell, I have paid upwards of 5K and have not been to court yet. For somebody like me, this is an insane amount of money. This despite pushing my lawyer, giving her all the ammo she needs and being really focused and well-organized. I am in a worse position now vis a vis the status quo than I was six months ago when I started. My lawyer agrees to every delay by opposing counsel, won't call them out on conflict of interest, won't ask them in writing for anything, and I just feel (correct me if I'm wrong) that they collude to suck up all the equity in your house. Nothing has been done in what I would call a timely fashion and I am not given any strategic advice on which to base my decisions. Furthurmore ex's family is paying his bill.
    I feel like this money would be better spent enjoying the time I have with my kids and I am robbing them of that... I just want to move on. I am tired of telling my kids I can't afford this and I can't afford that. I know what probable outcomes would be and my "worst case scenario" isn't that bad. Duty counsel is very helpful and I am competent enough to deal with non-procedural matters.
    I am just very frustrated and based on talking to others I know and on this forum I have come to the conclusion that those who settled w/out a lawyer in court or out have moved on with their lives, are less stressed, and have less debt than those who went to court with a lawyer, despite "winning".
    Those who self-repped, what is the level of success
    and what percentage of your time did it take up ?
    Is it possible to find a lawyer who will just advise on "courthouse" stuff and not require you to take him/her to court or communicate with opposing counsel? If so, how would you deal with that kind of relationship on court documents? Would a judge look askance on that?
    I would just like to add that this forum and its "regulars" are the best! Because you offer what people in this situation need....hope! I hope someday when I am settled to help out too. Right now I will do my best but feel like I am just flailing around myself....

  • #2
    What did you get for the 5K - Has the Application, Answer and or Reply been processed?

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    • #3
      I have got the application done (not cc brief, etc tho.).
      I have no issue with the way the billing is being done, I just find all legal fees high. And yes I know, they have to be paid but it's not the lawyers I have an issue with it's the system that puts you in court if you don't agree and doesn't settle things at that first appearance.
      Family matters should come before the courts more quickly and have a time limit during which they have to be settled eg. six months. How is it in the children's best interests for it to drag out for a year, two years? They are growing up while this is going on.
      Also I think lawyers should be paid a set fee for seperations. Then they would have incentive to settle quickly. As it is, the more complicated and long the case is, the more money they collect.

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      • #4
        Why hasn't either one of the parties scheduled a case conference through their lawyers to move the matter forward considering the general responsibility rests with them.

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        • #5
          We did. But generally nothing gets resolved at them, right?
          My point is, 5K in the hole and have not even been to court yet - that day will push me above 7 K and nothing will be settled. Is it worth it? Considering the wasted resources (don't forget both sides spend that kind of money) and extra rancour, I don't know.

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          • #6
            Yeah, I see where you're coming from.

            About 10 to 14 spent combined to date;

            vs.

            Additional future cost of all or part issues;

            vs.

            Cost of reasonable compromise towards all or part settlement.

            Nothing prevents a consent order on all or part of the issues at a conference. Who knows sometimes a futuristic outcome is given which promotes some settlement.

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            • #7
              Well I don't have a lot of advice to give you as I am fresh into this stuff as well... But i can say that understand your frustration with the timing of things... i went to my lawyer in July and am still waiting for the first letter to be sent.... let alone for the ap to be made.
              ...all the while, while we wait, our stress levels grow.
              I'm sorry you find yourself here as well. And I can't offer much at the moment, but I can let you know that you are not alone and others understand exactly where you are.
              I will send out good vibes to you and wish for things to progress for you.
              Good luck with moving forward... let us know how things progress for you with self rep.

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              • #8
                Many people fight over nothing, just for the sake of fighting.

                If you want to try to keep your costs down, then pick what issues you want to fight over. I have seen some people waste thousands of dollars fighting over a $50 couch.

                Also I have found that it is best to try to limit the issues when you go to court. The more issues per hearing makes it more difficult to get a resolution. It is best to go to court several times to get the issues resolved one at a time, than to waste time going to court many times with many issues and getting nothing resolved.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by rwm1273 View Post
                  Many people fight over nothing, just for the sake of fighting.
                  Kinda like you and me

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rwm1273 View Post
                    Many people fight over nothing, just for the sake of fighting.
                    I think it goes beyond just wanting to fight. It's about controlling, winning, making the other person's life a miserable hell and all at what costs.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dadtotheend View Post
                      Kinda like you and me

                      hee hee hee

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                      • #12
                        I'm presently going to court for the second time as a self-represented litigant (aka "do-it-yourselfer"). Like you, I can't afford a lawyer and don't qualify for legal aid. In February, I commenced court action to change the child support amounts. We will have a settlement hearing in November.
                        When you represent yourself, you are at a disadvantage if your former spouse has a lawyer. However, if you take advantage of FLIC have crossed your t's and dotted your i's and followed the procedural rules, the Family Court will cut you some slack.
                        A case conference, on average, is allotted a time of twenty minutes. If the Applicant (or the Applicant's lawyer) spends twenty minutes pointing out your flaws as a human being, you don't have much, if any time to defend your actions and before you know it, it is adjourned.
                        You can always "Make a Motion" (quoting the applicable rule number from the applicable act) for a "Settlement Hearing" and if the Judge agrees, so it will be.
                        The first time I successfully defended myself (it was for access changes and the Judge agreed with me that the time the children's father wanted to return the children was too late for the youngest). Since this case is for a change to child support, I will also be successful. I went to the last case conference prepared. Ex and his lawyer hadn't filed some documents with the court. The Judge agreed that mediation doesn't work for us. We had reached an agreement through mediation, then ex rewrote it claiming some things we agreed on were typos.
                        As long as what you are seeking is reasonable and you remain as unemotional as possible (given the circumstances) and don't interrupt the other party, the Judge will respect your attempts.
                        Prepare to spend a LOT of time though -- waiting in the courthouse at FLIC to have documents commissioned and at the courthouse to file them. It takes time to fill out the documents properly (especially the dreaded Financials -- dreaded because it takes so long to fill out) and you might be sent away a couple of times if the court clerk rejects them. I've learned a LOT the past couple of years about Family Court and representing yourself isn't as fearsome as I believed.
                        You can download the court forms (with directions) from the web-site (just search "Ontario Family Court Forms" -- check the links and you will get advice on the process). All the "Acts" (laws) are on the internet also.
                        But their are advantages in that you have more control when to file an application etc. and you know the ins and outs. Remember a Judge has to read EVERYTHING, so they really appreciate when you keep affidavits short and to the point.
                        Good Luck! :-)

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                        • #13
                          Gumby darlin I wish we all could give you hope, if you have read any of mythreads we have had cc, and 4 settlement conferences, and 2 dates to argue the motin that both somehow magically got screwed up by the courts themselves and instead of being in argued motions got sent to adjournments court...hahahaha. About 50 attempted email settlement offers, advice to go to mediation, parenting coordinator, and drum roll....Court ordered OCL involvement that was declined by OCL...been a year..you guys in here know our story, noting has even remotely been accomplished for us. we started out self represented the respondent hired....and for us no leniebcy was granted, whenever my husband went to court even though HE was the APPLICANT the Judge spoke to the lawyer. The the Respondent lost her lawyer couldnt pay anymore, how convenient since we just hired...hahahahaha, and our lawyer didnt do anything but drag it out either, no matter how much we told him this is hurting the kids, fight for our kids, please help our kids....So I know your pain

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