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  • What would you do?

    Hi all...wanted to get some feedback on a situation my husband is going through in the hopes it will aid him in his decision on how to handle this....

    They have a court order about a year old that updated some issues they didn't see eye to eye on in regards to section 7 expenses.

    They agreed in a case conference with the judge that he would pay 50%, his proportionate share, of $3800 per year. As my husband remembers it, this amount included girl guides, 2 weeks of summer camp, tutoring & child care. Receipts were submitted for all these expenses except for child care. The judge allowed for her to make an estimate for some reason.

    When my husband received his copy of the new court order from this appearance we were a little surprised that none of the details of these section 7 expenses were included in the order.

    It simply states he is to pay $158 per month for section 7 expenses. It also states the mother is to provide copies of the receipts for section 7 expenses prior to December 31st each year. There is also no mention of updating this amount yearly or otherwise.

    My husband received receipts for 2013 from the mother recently. These included receipts swimming lessons, 3 weeks of summer camp, karate, sewing club, march break camp, tutoring & child care from June to Dec. These receipts total $5200 and she is expecting that my husband increase his monthly contribution.

    He has a few issues with the receipts he received

    1. swimming receipts--was brought up in court and denied
    2. summer camp---only agreed to 2 weeks not 3
    3. karate----the fee for karate is 3 times higher than girl guides
    4. sewing club---was brought up in court and denied
    5. march break camp --- only agreed to summer camp
    6. tutoring---submitted the same receipt from court dated 2012 & altered it
    7. child care---receipt was authored by mom's BFF who works outside of the home. Husband has picked child up from this woman many times over the past 9 years. Has never charged in the past.

    As we speak my husband is at the court house requesting a copy of the transcript from their last appearance when section 7 expenses were settled.

    We are now trying to figure out how to handle this.

    He doesn't plan on agreeing or denying her demands until he receives the transcript. He doesn't want to rely on memory alone. I

    In the meantime should he question the child care receipt & the tutoring receipt?

    His daughter has confirmed that she is going to tutoring. He isn't able to call the tutor himself to confirm because he has no right to speak to the tutor & he has no information about the tutor. She is a teacher who provides the service on the side. The receipt is simply a letter dated Sept 2012 that was provided to the court indicating she has been tutoring the child for the 3 years, how much she charges per hour and approximately how many weeks a years she meets with the child. The mother made a note in her handwriting indicating the day of the week has changed and how many weeks per year the child attended for 2013.

    As for child care.....it has been common practice for many years for the child to attend camp once a month in the summer and be passed back n forth between grandparents and mom's BFF for the remaining weeks. There has never been any receipts generated by family/friends for this. It is also suspicious that there was no expense for child care between Jan & June. The child turned 11 yrs old in the fall of 2013. When my husband asked his daughter what she does after school she said she hangs out with her friend Alyssa who is mom's BFF's daughter.

    On a side note...this woman is a crazy pit bull. She has to be right about everything. She is very narcissistic, hypocrytical & has to win at all costs. We are trying to handle this in the best way possible without igniting a war with her while continuing to be fair and follow the order.

    Any comments or advice would be greatly appreciated.

  • #2
    By setting the $158 per month Section 7 I believe the judge tied the exes hands so that she couldn't go haywire on extras by making the distinct number. Given what she is now trying to submit to you, that amount would be a lot more. If she wants to change the order (i.e. Increase it) then let her bring a motion to vary the order unless you agree with the items/amounts. You would on this motion want proof of monies spent. This would then be your opportunity to either validate or disqualify the claims in the court.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by limer View Post
      By setting the $158 per month Section 7 I believe the judge tied the exes hands so that she couldn't go haywire on extras by making the distinct number. Given what she is now trying to submit to you, that amount would be a lot more. If she wants to change the order (i.e. Increase it) then let her bring a motion to vary the order unless you agree with the items/amounts. You would on this motion want proof of monies spent. This would then be your opportunity to either validate or disqualify the claims in the court.
      I just wonder if it is suppose to increase or decrease every year? Why ask the mother to provide recieipts if its always going to be a set amount?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by scarycheri View Post
        Hi all...wanted to get some feedback on a situation my husband is going through in the hopes it will aid him in his decision on how to handle this....

        They have a court order about a year old that updated some issues they didn't see eye to eye on in regards to section 7 expenses.

        They agreed in a case conference with the judge that he would pay 50%, his proportionate share, of $3800 per year. As my husband remembers it, this amount included girl guides, 2 weeks of summer camp, tutoring & child care. Receipts were submitted for all these expenses except for child care. The judge allowed for her to make an estimate for some reason.

        When my husband received his copy of the new court order from this appearance we were a little surprised that none of the details of these section 7 expenses were included in the order.

        It simply states he is to pay $158 per month for section 7 expenses. It also states the mother is to provide copies of the receipts for section 7 expenses prior to December 31st each year. There is also no mention of updating this amount yearly or otherwise.

        My husband received receipts for 2013 from the mother recently. These included receipts swimming lessons, 3 weeks of summer camp, karate, sewing club, march break camp, tutoring & child care from June to Dec. These receipts total $5200 and she is expecting that my husband increase his monthly contribution.

        He has a few issues with the receipts he received

        1. swimming receipts--was brought up in court and denied
        2. summer camp---only agreed to 2 weeks not 3
        3. karate----the fee for karate is 3 times higher than girl guides
        4. sewing club---was brought up in court and denied
        5. march break camp --- only agreed to summer camp
        6. tutoring---submitted the same receipt from court dated 2012 & altered it
        7. child care---receipt was authored by mom's BFF who works outside of the home. Husband has picked child up from this woman many times over the past 9 years. Has never charged in the past.

        As we speak my husband is at the court house requesting a copy of the transcript from their last appearance when section 7 expenses were settled.

        We are now trying to figure out how to handle this.

        He doesn't plan on agreeing or denying her demands until he receives the transcript. He doesn't want to rely on memory alone. I

        In the meantime should he question the child care receipt & the tutoring receipt?

        His daughter has confirmed that she is going to tutoring. He isn't able to call the tutor himself to confirm because he has no right to speak to the tutor & he has no information about the tutor. She is a teacher who provides the service on the side. The receipt is simply a letter dated Sept 2012 that was provided to the court indicating she has been tutoring the child for the 3 years, how much she charges per hour and approximately how many weeks a years she meets with the child. The mother made a note in her handwriting indicating the day of the week has changed and how many weeks per year the child attended for 2013.

        As for child care.....it has been common practice for many years for the child to attend camp once a month in the summer and be passed back n forth between grandparents and mom's BFF for the remaining weeks. There has never been any receipts generated by family/friends for this. It is also suspicious that there was no expense for child care between Jan & June. The child turned 11 yrs old in the fall of 2013. When my husband asked his daughter what she does after school she said she hangs out with her friend Alyssa who is mom's BFF's daughter.

        On a side note...this woman is a crazy pit bull. She has to be right about everything. She is very narcissistic, hypocrytical & has to win at all costs. We are trying to handle this in the best way possible without igniting a war with her while continuing to be fair and follow the order.

        Any comments or advice would be greatly appreciated.
        $158 per month is $1896 for the year which would be approximately 50% of the S7 expenses.

        All child support amounts, including S7 are updated annually.

        Children grow up through the year, so eventually daycare, girl guides, etc. won't be applicable at all due to the child's age. They also have a tendency to change their mind about what to be involved in, this doesn't mean they shouldn't be involved. If the specifics of each S7 expense was included in the court order, you would need a new court order each time the child changes sports, starts a new activity, stops daycare, etc, etc.

        Surely your husband must have noticed an extra week of summer camp and the March Break Camp?? This would have affected access for those weeks. If both parents work Fulltime - March Break Camp is nothing more than daycare.

        Generally speaking S7 expenses (except medical) require the agreement of both parents before the activity takes place. But, having said that, if all the expenses are in fact allowed, it's only $50 more per month than he had been paying.....a difference of $700 per parent for the entire year.

        Comment


        • #5
          He recalls the judge wanting the mother to provide proof to my husband that she is in fact putting out money for section 7 each year instead of him blindly remitting funds to her. He also recalled the judge saying that if there was to be an increase it had to be agreed upon by both parties. Prior to receiving these receipts there was no communication. She didn't let him know that she dropped girl guides and was looking at karate, a much more expensive activity. We only knew she was enrolled because she ruined our vacation by insisting that he take her at least twice a week while she was with us. She expected us to change all our plans to take his daughter to karate. We don't even live near each other.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by scarycheri View Post
            He recalls the judge wanting the mother to provide proof to my husband that she is in fact putting out money for section 7 each year instead of him blindly remitting funds to her. He also recalled the judge saying that if there was to be an increase it had to be agreed upon by both parties. Prior to receiving these receipts there was no communication. She didn't let him know that she dropped girl guides and was looking at karate, a much more expensive activity. We only knew she was enrolled because she ruined our vacation by insisting that he take her at least twice a week while she was with us. She expected us to change all our plans to take his daughter to karate. We don't even live near each other.
            What matters is not what he said but what was in the order. If the order said $158 a month and provide receipts, go with that. If she doesn't provide receipts, remind her she isn't following the order, then let it go. If she wants more, tell her to take it to court.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MS Mom View Post
              $158 per month is $1896 for the year which would be approximately 50% of the S7 expenses.

              All child support amounts, including S7 are updated annually.

              Children grow up through the year, so eventually daycare, girl guides, etc. won't be applicable at all due to the child's age. They also have a tendency to change their mind about what to be involved in, this doesn't mean they shouldn't be involved. If the specifics of each S7 expense was included in the court order, you would need a new court order each time the child changes sports, starts a new activity, stops daycare, etc, etc.

              Surely your husband must have noticed an extra week of summer camp and the March Break Camp?? This would have affected access for those weeks. If both parents work Fulltime - March Break Camp is nothing more than daycare.

              Generally speaking S7 expenses (except medical) require the agreement of both parents before the activity takes place. But, having said that, if all the expenses are in fact allowed, it's only $50 more per month than he had been paying.....a difference of $700 per parent for the entire year.
              I am aware of how they came to the currently monthly amount. I completed all the documents for court and my husband was self-represented. I have become well versed in family court. He won his case. She was going after him for $17k. She left with $1500 of which he had agreed to in the first place.

              Child care and summer camp were separated during court. This was also the case with my own court order with my ex.

              Mom doesn't communicate with my husband about anything. The camps didn't interfere with his access so he had no way of knowing.

              I may have confused the issue by giving too much information. Our most pressing issue right now is whether to poke the dog with the stick so to speak regarding the 2 receipts---child care & tutoring. Child care possibly being false & tutoring being outdated.
              Last edited by scarycheri; 02-13-2014, 11:44 AM. Reason: add some info

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by scarycheri View Post
                I am aware of how they came to the currently monthly amount. I completed all the documents for court and my husband was self-represented. He won his case. She was going after him for $17k. She left with $1500 of which he had agreed to in the first place.

                Mom doesn't communicate with my husband about anything. The camps didn't interfere with his access so he had no way of knowing. The court transcript will help to determine what the judge actually said and he will go by that.

                Our most pressing issue right now is whether to poke the dog with the stick so to speak regarding the 2 receipts---child care & tutoring. Child care possibly being false & tutoring being outdated.
                If its $158 as per the order, and if that is roughly what you think the real costs, not her inflated costs would be, let it go. It isn't worth getting worked up over, let alone the costs of a lawyer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by scarycheri View Post
                  I am aware of how they came to the currently monthly amount. I completed all the documents for court and my husband was self-represented. He won his case. She was going after him for $17k. She left with $1500 of which he had agreed to in the first place.

                  Mom doesn't communicate with my husband about anything. The camps didn't interfere with his access so he had no way of knowing. The court transcript will help to determine what the judge actually said and he will go by that.

                  Our most pressing issue right now is whether to poke the dog with the stick so to speak regarding the 2 receipts---child care & tutoring. Child care possibly being false & tutoring being outdated.
                  Then request an updated receipt for tutoring. The tutoring receipt is likely difficult to get if it's all "under the table", but that's between the tutorer and CRA.

                  As for the daycare - keep in mind just because the provider did work outside the home and did not require payment in the past, it doesn't mean that this arrangement continued. If there's no communication between the parents, then this change may not have been communicated either. But, having said that - 11 year olds generally don't need substantial amounts of daycare. At least mine doesn't.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DowntroddenDad View Post
                    If its $158 as per the order, and if that is roughly what you think the real costs, not her inflated costs would be, let it go. It isn't worth getting worked up over, let alone the costs of a lawyer.
                    We don't use lawyers anymore. I am stilling paying back a $17k loan for my 2009 court case with my ex.

                    My concern is if we don't question the child care receipt or the tutoring receipt and this goes back to court...because she wants the increase...will he be setting precedent?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by scarycheri View Post
                      We don't use lawyers anymore. I am stilling paying back a $17k loan for my 2009 court case with my ex.

                      My concern is if we don't question the child care receipt or the tutoring receipt and this goes back to court...because she wants the increase...will he be setting precedent?
                      By all means question it. Send a registered letter. But don't expect a response from a such a high conflict person, and don't get yourself worked up about it. In the end it isn't worth the fight.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MS Mom View Post
                        Then request an updated receipt for tutoring. The tutoring receipt is likely difficult to get if it's all "under the table", but that's between the tutorer and CRA.

                        As for the daycare - keep in mind just because the provider did work outside the home and did not require payment in the past, it doesn't mean that this arrangement continued. If there's no communication between the parents, then this change may not have been communicated either. But, having said that - 11 year olds generally don't need substantial amounts of daycare. At least mine doesn't.
                        During court my husband brought that fact up and the judge said she would allow the written letter even though the tutor was being fraudulent by not claiming the income. He would accept an updated letter confirming her attendance.

                        As for child care. She isn't charging her. My husband knows her well as they were all friends prior to splitting. This woman works full time for the school board. She submitted an affidavit to the court outlining her relationship to the mother and child during their last appearance. Mom was trying to take my husbands access away. We know she isn't charging her best friend for babysitting. We also know that the child took a first aid course to prep her to stay home alone. She created a letter to help her friend get more money out of my husband. His other concern is who was looking after the child between Jan & June? The letter that he received by this woman indicates care from July to Dec.

                        My daughter was out of child care when she was 11 yrs old. She was able to get off the bus and let herself in the house. I spoke to Children's Aid extensively about it when my ex was trying to get out of paying for child care. They told me that if she was 10 yrs or younger and she was injured while being left alone I could be charged with neglect.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by scarycheri View Post
                          During court my husband brought that fact up and the judge said she would allow the written letter even though the tutor was being fraudulent by not claiming the income. He would accept an updated letter confirming her attendance.

                          As for child care. She isn't charging her. My husband knows her well as they were all friends prior to splitting. This woman works full time for the school board. She submitted an affidavit to the court outlining her relationship to the mother and child during their last appearance. Mom was trying to take my husbands access away. We know she isn't charging her best friend for babysitting. We also know that the child took a first aid course to prep her to stay home alone. She created a letter to help her friend get more money out of my husband. His other concern is who was looking after the child between Jan & June? The letter that he received by this woman indicates care from July to Dec.

                          My daughter was out of child care when she was 11 yrs old. She was able to get off the bus and let herself in the house. I spoke to Children's Aid extensively about it when my ex was trying to get out of paying for child care. They told me that if she was 10 yrs or younger and she was injured while being left alone I could be charged with neglect.
                          What you know and what you can prove are two very different things. A receipt or a signed letter trumps your gut feelings in court. And how would you know the tutor wasn't claiming the income, are you psychic?

                          You need to disengage. Your husband's ex is probably enjoying watching you get all worked up about this. It could potentially cause friction between you and your husband. Let your husband take the lead. Don't sweat the small stuff. Support your husband but let him make the decisions. Don't look for losers and winners.

                          Your husband won in court, and the court set a reasonable limit. Stick to that, and let the rest roll off your back.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for all the feedback. I have lots of information and opinions to share with my husband. This should make things a little easier for him when deciding how to proceed.

                            My husband is very responsible with his financial support of his daughter. He has always disclosed his income and updated his support without being asked. He wants his daughter to be happy and healthy. All of his decisions have been centered around this. His choice to stop fighting for more time with his daughter was based on this wish. He gave into his exes demands to lessen his access to spare his daughter from the lengthy & emotional process of a children's lawyer & the tug of war that inevitably happens. If his ex struggled financially to provide for his daughter I have no doubt that he would increase his support to exceed the guidelines and even pay for activities on his own however his ex makes $100k year and lives high off the hog. She receives $1000 a month from my husband. Her request for an additional $70 for s7 & her most recent attempt to extort $17k leads him to believe it's all just an attempt to anger him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DowntroddenDad View Post
                              What you know and what you can prove are two very different things. A receipt or a signed letter trumps your gut feelings in court. And how would you know the tutor wasn't claiming the income, are you psychic?

                              You need to disengage. Your husband's ex is probably enjoying watching you get all worked up about this. It could potentially cause friction between you and your husband. Let your husband take the lead. Don't sweat the small stuff. Support your husband but let him make the decisions. Don't look for losers and winners.

                              Your husband won in court, and the court set a reasonable limit. Stick to that, and let the rest roll off your back.
                              Not psychic, his ex told the court this.

                              Trust me...I am not engaged as you may think and not worked up. I wouldn't give her the satisfaction. It used to get me very upset but it has never caused friction between us. My husband is and has always taken the lead on all things with her. I refuse to have any contact with her however I will always support my husband which means I will always help him. This is why I posted this question. Help him get some opinions and info that would help him to decide how he wants to handle it and do the right thing

                              Comment

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