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What activities are considered section 7 expenses

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  • #16
    I’m not disagreeing with Ange here, just trying to get the whole picture. If anybody knows about the non custodial parent not paying for anything, it’s me lol. I sympathize with her situation for the most part.

    If mediation does not work out in his favour, he has every right to take you to court over it though (grrr, I know). My thoughts on it are that a judge MAY allow it to be considered s7 moving forward because a) a little summer camp here and there can actually be in best interests of the child (socialization with other children, planned and scheduled activities throughout the day, breaks up the monotony of summer etc) and b) If he in any way mentions that he needs the camp to cover childcare while he works, he has a home run on this one unfortunately. A lot of 11 and 13 year olds are more than capable of being left on their own, but all he would have to do is say that he is not comfortable yet with the children being home alone and doesn’t want to leave them by themselves to their own devices day in and day out.

    You won’t be made to pay for past camp expenses. Your current agreement is very clear on what is currently allowed. Nor will you be ordered to put children in camp during your time. I just think that if it goes in front of the judge, two weeks of summer camp may very well qualify. Especially if he uses a combination of the “best interests” and the “I need childcare for work” arguments.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ange71727 View Post
      In my opinion, a guy who is taking me to court for increased access time should maybe worry about spending his seven days WITH his kids instead of putting them in camp. But of course he’s entitled to do what he wants.
      This is one sentiment I do not agree with. Just because your ex has to work and feels his kids best interests are served by being in a fun and active day camp while he is gone through the day, does not mean he doesn’t deserve more access time. Not everyone has the luxury of summers off to spend with their children. While it seems you clearly have other valid reasons to support your argument of no more access time for dad, please do not use this one.

      Originally posted by Ange71727 View Post
      I think he wants to pay even less than he’s paying. Getting 40% time = offset support. It’s all about money with him.
      Getting to 40% parenting time does not mean automatic offset support.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
        Whether or not the summer camps are s7 would depend on whether your ex needs them for work. I see the kids are 13 and 11, but the ex may not want to leave them home alone while he works. If that is the case, I think he would have a strong argument that the camps are to enable him to work and therefore are s7. If they are not to enable him to work, then they are not s7.


        If your family is going skiing one weekend in the winter or taking surf lessons while you are on a trip in California, those are not, and would never be considered, section 7 expenses.


        1 100% agree with you. I chose those fun things for my time and would never ask for a dime from him. So why would a fun, recreational week of summer camp be considered Section 7 then? He has not once said that he needs summer camp for “daycare” purposes. In fact, he has been very vocal with me in the past about the kids being old enough to stay home alone now. He wanted to stop paying daycare costs on my time, of course, when he said this.
        The 13 year old stayed out of daycare period this year, which ex was supportive of. It would be hypocritical for him to then make me pay for his daycare when he no longer does during my time.
        He has never presented this argument though.



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        • #19
          Originally posted by Selfrepmom View Post
          This is one sentiment I do not agree with. Just because your ex has to work and feels his kids best interests are served by being in a fun and active day camp while he is gone through the day, does not mean he doesn’t deserve more access time. Not everyone has the luxury of summers off to spend with their children. While it seems you clearly have other valid reasons to support your argument of no more access time for dad, please do not use this one.







          Getting to 40% parenting time does not mean automatic offset support.


          He has the week off with the kids on paper. That is how the schedule is designed. He has always wanted it based around his work and I have complied. He is choosing to put them in camp when he is off.
          We think he is choosing to work, however, and that is why the camp. I agree that summer camp is fun. It is certainly something the kids will likely enjoy. I think that either way, whether he’s working or not, it’s his expense to cover as it’s his decision to put them in it.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ange71727 View Post
            1 100% agree with you. I chose those fun things for my time and would never ask for a dime from him. So why would a fun, recreational week of summer camp be considered Section 7 then? He has not once said that he needs summer camp for “daycare” purposes. In fact, he has been very vocal with me in the past about the kids being old enough to stay home alone now. He wanted to stop paying daycare costs on my time, of course, when he said this.
            The 13 year old stayed out of daycare period this year, which ex was supportive of. It would be hypocritical for him to then make me pay for his daycare when he no longer does during my time.
            He has never presented this argument though.



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            I guess it will all come down to how the ex reasons this. If they say that the summer camp is necessary for them to work, then you will likely be on the hook for your proportional share. Their reasoning for their position of past instances can be used as a rebuttable, so they will need to provide solid reasoning as to why in this instance it is necessary.


            One argument I can see is that the 13y/o wasn't in daycare this year because it was simply before and after school care, not a full day (thinking hypothetically here, I don't know the actual situation. Just coming up with thinking for you). He may have been cool with the child being home for brief periods, but not the whole day. That would be a reasonable position.


            Unless the ex has specifically stated that summer camp is a recreational thing, I wouldn't assume it is. I would ask him for his reasoning on why it is necessary for the kids to be in summer camp. Is it so he can work? Or does he think it is just a good idea that they do it? One of those is s7, the other is not.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ange71727 View Post
              I think that either way, whether he’s working or not, it’s his expense to cover as it’s his decision to put them in it.

              That is not how the law looks at it.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ange71727 View Post
                I think that either way, whether he’s working or not, it’s his expense to cover as it’s his decision to put them in it.
                If he is not working I agree with you, and you should not be paying for it at the moment. But getting in front of a judge to decide if it is s7 moving forward will probably be a roll of the dice on this one. And if the ex throws out any sort of comment about having to be at work, the scales will tip largely in his favour. I would just be prepared that if this doesn’t get resolved in mediation, you may end up loosing this argument in front of a judge, depending on how your ex presents his argument.

                Have you talked to the kids about it? Do they like camp? It sounds like they are in a lot of extracurriculars.... perhaps you could negotiate dropping one of those in exchange for some time at summer camp, to balance the expenses?

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                • #23
                  Every single email from him references that it is a good idea that they do it, not that it is necessary for work.
                  Also, to be clear for everyone: he has stated that the ideal situation is that we each do a summer camp on our time and pay for it. I tell him no thank you every year and cite reasons such as lack of extra funds, wanting to travel instead, valuing different experiences for the kids, etc. He then says he is going ahead with camp and that I owe him for it because it is Section 7. He is very adamant that it is Section 7 just based on it being "in their best interests". There hasn't been one mention of necessity for work. The schedule is designed so that he can be off with the kids on his parenting time. I think he might have a hard time using the "need to work" argument when we had to go with this crazy, wonky schedule so he would always be off during his parenting time. No?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ange71727 View Post
                    Every single email from him references that it is a good idea that they do it, not that it is necessary for work.
                    Also, to be clear for everyone: he has stated that the ideal situation is that we each do a summer camp on our time and pay for it. I tell him no thank you every year and cite reasons such as lack of extra funds, wanting to travel instead, valuing different experiences for the kids, etc. He then says he is going ahead with camp and that I owe him for it because it is Section 7. He is very adamant that it is Section 7 just based on it being "in their best interests". There hasn't been one mention of necessity for work. The schedule is designed so that he can be off with the kids on his parenting time. I think he might have a hard time using the "need to work" argument when we had to go with this crazy, wonky schedule so he would always be off during his parenting time. No?

                    He may have a tough climb, but he may still be successful. There could be any number of reasons why he may have to work during an unscheduled period. He would need to specify this. It would be easiest if he simply told you "I have to work that week and here is the reason why".


                    But if his reason is that he simply wants the kids involved in activities for the day, than it isn't a s7 and he can pound sand.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Selfrepmom View Post
                      If he is not working I agree with you, and you should not be paying for it at the moment. But getting in front of a judge to decide if it is s7 moving forward will probably be a roll of the dice on this one. And if the ex throws out any sort of comment about having to be at work, the scales will tip largely in his favour. I would just be prepared that if this doesn’t get resolved in mediation, you may end up loosing this argument in front of a judge, depending on how your ex presents his argument.

                      Have you talked to the kids about it? Do they like camp? It sounds like they are in a lot of extracurriculars.... perhaps you could negotiate dropping one of those in exchange for some time at summer camp, to balance the expenses?
                      They are in a ton of things. Which is also why I feel they can take a break in the summer. My son does house league hockey, plus a spring sport, plus all the sports teams at school. My daughter does two sports during the year and did two different ones during the spring/summer. Plus sports teams at school. No one could ever make the argument that they "need" to keep doing more sports during the summer when I can show them the list of what they've done all year. It's insanity really. The budget for all of this is thousands of dollars. The ex would never negotiate dropping a sport. The kids would also choose to drop summer camp over dropping one of their other sports - I am sure of this.
                      Another point: I have another child (with current husband)! I could make the argument that my time is even more limited because I have to shuttle the other child to activities as well.
                      I guess it really isn't cut and dry in this case, and we'll have to see.

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                      • #26
                        Anyone have any suggestions on wording regarding section 7 recreational activities? My ex has said that activities can't be scheduled on his time (sure. although our co-parent therapist told him that taking kids to activities is parenting)- but also doesn't want D2 in more than 1 activity per year. I mean- she's in swimming now-but I'd like that to change as she gets older.

                        Rocksan suggested I propose that section 7 expenses being on consent. But I foresee him just saying no to all activities moving forward. I guess I'm okay just eating the costs if he says no?

                        BUT - what about summer camps- which are needed for me to work during the summer. If I propose section 7 on consent- doesn't that mean that he can say I can't put her in summer camps because I need to work?

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                        • #27
                          If the camps are daycare then it doesn’t matter about consent, he has to share the cost.

                          I would stick with the standard clause with a few disclaimers. For instance:

                          The child’s current section 7 expenses include...(list them).

                          Future section 7 expenses will be shared proportionate to income after agreement in writing for the expense. Additional Activities and extraordinary expenses outside of daycare and medical costs will be limited to two activities or $1000 per year. Written agreement will not be unnecessarily withheld. (Or something like that)

                          Your ex needs to realize he is on the hook for medical and child care whether he agrees or not. Thats a non starter. Additional stuff is what has to be agreed to. Plus it works both ways. If he wants to put her in a fun activity and has been a dick to you, you could turn around and say no to him.

                          Also, depending on cost, some stuff isnt s7. For instance, he pays you $500 a month, a $20 weekend camp isn’t section 7. You may want to add some ideas or something? Maybe discuss with your co-parenting counselor?

                          I should also note that in my husbands case, his ex used to claim all kinds of stuff that wasn’t s7 or that she didn’t get permission for or that she interpreted differently. For instance...camp was listed since the kids were enrolled already when they signed the papers. Therefore she had free will to enroll them every year. Then kids got subsidies to attend and she wanted to split $200 cost when her income with cs was 100 g.

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                          • #28
                            Thanks. I might propose the overall costs be limited a bit higher- like $2000- kids activities are goddamn expensive. Even city programs are like $500 a session for ballet or dance. Not to mention piano, etc etc...

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                            • #29
                              Yep and imagine having a spouse who felt the kids should be able to do everything and try everything depending on their whims and feelings even if they decided after the non-refundable fee was paid to drop the session!!

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                              • #30
                                I agree that any daycare expenses should not be lumped into the “negotiable” or “mutually agreed upon” category. If you require summer camp for daycare, then it should be written right in that you both should pay your proportionate shares. What Rockscan outlined above is a lot like how my agreement is written. It states we owe our proportionate share for daycare (after tax amount) during the school year, and then the specific sports, as well as exact budget amount set out for those sports. We do a calculation every year that determines the monthly daycare fee, which my ex adds to his child support, and also whether anyone has under or overpaid. My lawyer just does this for free for me as it’s a super simple calculation with his lawyer software.

                                Update on my above story:
                                The kids have now attended the summer camp their dad put them into. They told me that he stayed home the entire week and worked on the house.
                                To me, there is no way I owe him money for this. He’s adding it to the mediation topics list for the fall, so we will see what the mediator says.


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