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Financial Issues This forum is for discussing any of the financial issues involved in your divorce.

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  #1  
Old 03-25-2016, 10:54 AM
hdc1894 hdc1894 is offline
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Default All over the place!

Well, for those of you who have read my posts, you will think I am schizophrenic! In latest discussions with my stbx she is really mad and not really to negotiate past what a lawyers has told her she is entitled to. The only issue for me is amount and term of SS (I know, BIG only). Divorcemate calculates 1643 ss and 650 CS a month based on our incomes. My position is that she does have an obligation and opportunity (IMO) to make more and that she is not a stay at home, no training mom. She has a Masters degree and has worked to varying degrees over the term of our marriage. It has been mostly half time but there were periods early on in the marriage where she made more than me! The differences in our incomes are based on our career choices not based on economic disadvantages incurred as a result of the marriage. So, my question is, do I have any reason to think that anything less than 1643 SS and 650 CC for an indefinite basis (CS ends in 8 years as long as S14 goes to UNI) would be possible if I involve a lawyer? My main argument is that her opportunity and obligation for self-sufficiency is not me at her current income. Could it be successfully argued that short term higher (1643 for 1-2 years) followed by low range for 6.5 years is appropriate legally). Been looking on Canlii and there seems to be some precedent for this type of arrangement (but maybe I am just seeing what I want to see).

She is 47, I am 43, marriage 16.5 years and cohab for addition 1 year. Any ideas?
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:05 AM
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Many people (myself included after a 30 year marriage) agree to a stepped-down gradually decreasing SS component. This can be accomplished with gradually increasing imputed income. This way she has time to adjust and knows when she has to be self-sufficient. A review after 5 years is standard.
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:54 AM
hdc1894 hdc1894 is offline
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Thanks Arabian. Did your SS continue indefinitely? What made you personally decide what you should accept and for how long? Also, how was the imputed income decided upon?

Last edited by hdc1894; 03-25-2016 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Changes
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:49 PM
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yes I have "indefinite" SS. Our agreement/Order was done with a judge in a JDR (judicial dispute resolution). We both agreed prior to the JDR that it was binding which meant that we empowered judge to make a final determination should we not agree. This took 1 day with my ex and I and our lawyers present. Keep in mind that we did not have "children of the marriage" and therefore agreement was just over SS.

After having been "educated" about the divorce law in Canada by my lawyer and independent research I understood rationale of SS. Had I not understood this I would have wasted a lot of time/money. When 2 people are married for a long time your finances are merged (even if you keep separate bank accounts) and you both enjoy combined income and resulting lifestyle. Important to note that even if someone didn't work outside of the home, they contributed so that other party could go out and make large income. Both contributed, in their own way, to the marriage. I personally had contributed more than 400,000.00.

I agreed to the gradually decreasing SS because it seemed only fair and reasonable. I felt that I should have the company tied up in a few years (I was naive - it actually took a few years longer than I expected and sucked up all of the SS I received).

My agreement specifically was that both my ex and I were imputed income. I received 50% of difference between our incomes. In years 2, 3 and 4 my imputed income increased in units (you can put it a 5k or 10k or 20k - whatever works for you). As my ex was self-employed he had to submit very detailed financials to me every year and his income was adjusted accordingly (his imputed income was a baseline - his actual income was considerably higher). Prior to this, during the JDR, we hammered out very specific guideline for was was to be accepted as "business operating expenses." My ex had to submit to me the "original" invoices as I was able to show judge how dishonest my ex was when in the JDR he tried to submit a bogus lease agreement for heavy equipment. Judge was aghast at this.

After the 5th year we had a "review." Ex purported to be an "employee" and today likely continues to hide income through his g/f. I can not prove anything. I now receive a smaller amount of SS re viewable upon his retirement or material change of circumstances.

You and others might wonder why I don't simply throw in the towel and let ex end SS. At the time of our separation ex took all of the money as well as substantial assets and put under family and g/f's name leaving me penniless. I was faced with not only family debt but with corporate debt (source deduction and tax payments). Home was under his name and he would not make mortgage payment (it had been mortgaged a few years back to secure equipment purchase). Home had a few years before that been in my name only but I turned title to him so he could wheel and deal. I always thought that as I was a full business partner that I was protected. I had a corporate lawyer, a criminal lawyer (ex charged with fraud over 5k) and a divorce lawyer at the time of separation. My options were limited by the Divorce Act which seems to take precedent over being a partner in an incorporated business with one's spouse.

Hope that information helps.
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdc1894 View Post
Thanks Arabian. Did your SS continue indefinitely? What made you personally decide what you should accept and for how long? Also, how was the imputed income decided upon?

In your situation the "review" would be important. At that time you can argue that she is self-sufficient and/or is underemployed. Once income imputing is in your agreement it is not too difficult to have it adjusted up or down.

Some people have "reviews" incorporated in their agreement after 3 years.

Remember that "indefinite" can mean 1.00/year. In the old days this used to be commonly referred to as the One Dollar Deal which was used for wealthy ex's to focus argument that lifestyle of marriage should be maintained after divorce and made it easy to review after ex had windfall.
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:59 PM
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With that type of payment 1650 + 640 where does that leave your net incomes?
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:45 PM
hdc1894 hdc1894 is offline
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Well, the way I see it is this.

My net monthly is 5480. There is an annual bonus with a three year average of 16 k. Annual gross salary is 118000. SS annual deductions put me with an 8500 tax return.

Hers is (as best I can calculate due to new job) is net monthly at 2866 on an annual gross of 43140. Taxes owed as a result of of SS IS 7350.

Monthly split is her at 5159 and me at 3180! Total annual split is her at 51226 and me at 46718.

Really gives me the short end of the stick monthly and gives her 5k net more a year. Yikes is that how it is gonna be?
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Old 03-25-2016, 02:14 PM
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IF my ex hadn't hidden his money and was willing to be honest I would have much preferred a lump sum combined with 3 yrs SS trickle-down. Having to go back and forth to court and chasing this loser around for crumbs has been tiring to say the least.

Worst case scenario: You were married 16 years so the length is typically .5 - 1 yr for every year you were married if you opt not to go the lump sum route. As your ex is employed you may be looking at .5 when it comes to length (8 yrs). No reviews.

Better case scenario: You agree on a step-down SS ending in 5 years. Codicil for end of SS should she cohab with someone else and/or reaches same income as you (financials to be exchanged annually).

Best case scenario: You agree on a lump sum. No review.

I have absolutely no personal experience when it comes to CS and SS and how one affects the other.

I would suggest that you think in terms of annual as opposed to monthly when contemplating SS. How each of you decide to pay your respective taxes is of little relevance IMO.

Last edited by arabian; 03-25-2016 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 03-25-2016, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdc1894 View Post
Well, the way I see it is this.

My net monthly is 5480. There is an annual bonus with a three year average of 16 k. Annual gross salary is 118000. SS annual deductions put me with an 8500 tax return.

Hers is (as best I can calculate due to new job) is net monthly at 2866 on an annual gross of 43140. Taxes owed as a result of of SS IS 7350.

Monthly split is her at 5159 and me at 3180! Total annual split is her at 51226 and me at 46718.

Really gives me the short end of the stick monthly and gives her 5k net more a year. Yikes is that how it is gonna be?
Something is wrong.... custody is shared 50/50?

Have you done this using a proper tool that takes into account all tax benefits, deductions etc...

Also consider S7 expenses.

SSAG is 100% negotiable as long as you can convince the judge of certain critical points you can possibly get a reasonable deal.

If you just settle at whatever the BS "system" tells you then you will get screwed.

Go to court
-Prove her lower income isn't due to the marriage that even if she had continued her career uninterrupted she'd only make XYZ and pay her so she attains that goal (disentitle her from comp support)

-Prove you also suffered income loss due to the family

-Prove that her lifestype won't vary much after divorce and with the amount of support you are proposing it will be similar (disentitle her from non-comp support)

I think litigation is important, I argued successfully to have my alimony an end date set and then AGAIN to have it terminated. My trash ex-wife is dumb as a rock so it helped but if you can prove the things I mentionned you can minimize her entitlement.
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Old 03-25-2016, 02:52 PM
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Here is a good recent case from Nova Scotia of a couple who were in long-term marriage. Judge walks the reader through how quantum of SS was determined. In the particular case the "indefinite" support isn't large, however, it does reflect the reality of the couple's incomes.

A good case to see difference in compensatory and non-compensatory SS.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ns/nssc/do...016nssc49.html
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