Is it hopeless? First case conference gone wrong....any advice is appreciated

[exceptiontotherules]

BF went to first case conference today. Went horribly bad and the judge basically told him that he would rule 100% in favour of his ex. Is this just this particular judge's opinion or is my bf financially ruined for life? Any help or advice how to proceed is appreciated.

No motions ordered today other than financial disclosure of biological fathers and their support orders (which have not been completed yet).

A little background on the situation - 8 years married, diligently paid according to separation agreement for both biological kids. She found out she could get money for the two kids not his and alimony and now 15 months later is looking to cash in. Judge basically said he didn't care they had drafted a separation agreement.

She was to pay for half the debts and decided not to. She stopped paying and said it was his problem. He tried to keep up but hours cut at work. He has a huge negative equity and credit is falling fast. Judge said she wouldn't be responsible for half, it was 100% his problem.

She denied him access for 3 months and continually keeps them from him for vacation or extra time. She isn't following the existing temporary court order but the judge wanted to change some things based on "her word".

His income has dropped by 20%, soon to be 40%. Overtime cut and her attorney is trying to get him assessed at more than he brings home. She makes cash and is lying about her income and expenses.

Based on the alimony and child support numbers the judge threw out my bf would not have $500 a month to live off. That wouldn't cover rent (he has a basic apartment, nothing fancy) let alone transportation to work and food.

How is he to maintain a job if he can't keep somewhere to live, can't feed himself and can't get to the job to pay her?

We have extensive documentation but judge didn't even want to look at that. It shows the games she has played with access to the children and denial of time.

Any help or advice anyone can offer is appreciated. His lawyer is professional and argued but hers was loud, obnoxious, unprofessional and overpowered the situation. Due to her lying on her income, she has legal aid and we of course do not. We have limited money to fight her.

Is it possible to come out ok or is he doomed? Any suggestions on how to combat this from people who have been there or seen it before?

He is not opposed to paying but wanted to get his kids more (not for a reduction in money but just to spend time with them) and the judge didn't even talk about that.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Exception

I'm going through my own issues but that is for another post...

[standing on the sidelines]

i am really hoping that this works out for your bf. How can the judge even think to award her SS after this long?? If she hasn't needed it for the last 15 months then she doesn't need it. Has your boyfriend tried to get legal aid since his income has dropped?? I am thinking that the judge cannot disregard the separation agreement. So everything was okay until she got the idea that she could squeeze more money out of your bf? (except for the access) It is woman like her that make it bad for others and give CP mothers a bad rap.

[FL_Needs_To_Change]

If both parties to the separation agreement had independent legal council before they signed it then it should stand up.
If they did not get a lawyer to look it over and sign a paper stating that they had advised the person of the ramification/implications of signing the agreement it can be tossed out as void.

The BF would do well to not focus on the behaviour of the ex , and only focus on dates and times and remain neutral.
IE when documenting denied access do not interject an opinion of why she did this or anything.
Simply state access was to occur on this date, explain that he arrived as per agreement for access but children were not ready for access, no access took place. IF he called, provide a telephone log of all calls and note if he left a message, if someone answered, and what was said and possibly how long the call lasted.

All his notice of assessments would be what the courts would want to determine CS amounts however, also make sure to include recent pay stubs to support the reduced income. Otherwise the courts will use the average of the last three years of his income. And if the company issued any written notices to the affect of reduced work loads include that too to document that over time and extra work is being cut back.

He must not under any circumstances look like he’s trying to make the mother look bad.
He has to stick to documentable facts, otherwise the judge will rule in her favour hands down.
Spousal support as a general rule should be at minimum “requested” for consideration within the first year of separation.
As stated because she managed 15 months without it, it demonstrates her decreased need. SS is primarily based on the need of the requesting party and means to pay of the paying party after all other support ordered amounts are misused from the income. The courts take into consideration the length f the relationship, both parties income levels, any support orders from other parties, (ie cs for the non-bio children from their bio father and his role in their lives). It is important if there is no order for support from the bio dad for the other children to seek to include him in this request as it is primarily his obligation to support his bio-children not the BF.
If the courts feel that the claim for CS of the non-bio children is warranted, they will look at the capacity in which the BF played the parental role. IE did he sign permission slips, attend school teacher meetings, doctor’s appointments and dental appointments, how involved in discipline was he relative to the mother things like that to determine “loco parentis”.

The courts would have to first determine if CS for the non-bio children is valid prior to establishing need for SS as sated, the CS amount it taken off the income of the payer before calculating spousal support amounts, plus the courts ADD any benefit the children play for the custodial aren’t to the mother’s income, IE tax credits, Child tax benefits, etc. Not to mention CS is added to her income to further determine if the need for spousal support is further warranted. As CS is expected to help with the basic needs of the children and those basic needs include rent for a home for them to live, food etc.

Your lawyer should be able to further help in these areas.
But with this you can arm yourself with some knowledge by searching the laws and any case studies on how judges have ruled in the past on any case that may be similar to yours.
Here is a useful link for case studies,

CanLII - Advanced Search

[FL_Needs_To_Change]

CanLII - 2004 ONCJ 324 (CanLII)

This is a good case to read.
Mother had two children with another man and did not seek support from him, and waited beyond the time limit to seek SS.
Here is an excerpt, noting what the judge says, IE during the wait before bringing forth a SS request, mom did not incur debt, and most important did not provide appropriate reason for not starting the calim for SS in a timely manner

The father and the mother did agree that the mother would not have to look for employment until Katlyn was in school. However, the father has not built up his assets as a result of not paying spousal support. The mother did not incur substantial debt before bringing this application and, more importantly, does not provide an appropriate reason for not starting this application on a more timely basis. In addition, the father did pay some spousal support and the mother’s ongoing expenses are modest. Under all the circumstances, including the payments of ongoing spousal support as well as the ongoing and retroactive child support, I find that it would cause an unfair burden on the father to pay in addition retroactive spousal support and accordingly, I dismiss that claim.

[exceptiontotherules]

What happens next?

Thank you for the responses!!!!! Yes, I would agree that she gives divorcing mothers (like me) a bad rap. We will look into legal aid, the worst they can say is no I guess.

Unfortunately I think that she may get around on a technicality for the SS because he took her to court to get access just before Christmas and she slipped it in on the counter motion. That was just before the time limit. The problem was she had denied him access for 3 months and he wanted to see the kids for Christmas. Even now she barely follows the temporary court order.

I will look in depth into the case law site - that will be helpful. No case law was mentioned at the case conference which I thought was odd, the judge just listened to her fake sobs in the corner and outright lies. My bf did not get to say very much over those two. The judge didn't even listen and just assumed "loco parentis".

Unfortunately, now I have more questions though - if anyone has any answers please let me know....

-What happens next after the case conference?

-If one judge stated his opinion is that indicative of how all judges will rule this case? Her her loud mouth lawyer interrupting and talking over everyone to direct the conversation away from anything that made her look bad.

-If it goes to trial will he actually get to tell his side or will they just ignore him there too and award her all this money and him no time with his kids? He had access issues as well, trying to get them more and the judge didn't care. We are wondering if it is worth pursuing fighting. He wants to see his kids more and doesn't mind paying as long as it's fair. The numbers they threw out were basically what he brings home.

-Shouldn't his lawyer have interjected with his issues to make sure they were heard? (like denial of access and her not filing for SS or CS for the 2 girls until he brought the access issue to the judge at the end of the 12 months)? People on this site don't even know the intimate details of this case and that was a response I got back, I think it should have been brought up. We think his lawyer wasn't wasting his breath because the judge wasn't interested in hearing it but we are concerned on if he pursues this what will happen. He needs someone to fight for him!!

Unfortunately, because this judge agreed with her and told her she'll get all this money and he won't get the kids any extra than once per week and every other weekend he has created an absolute MONSTER...if she wasn't bad enough trying to dictate and harass us before, now she is a vindicated woman. You can only imagine what we are dealing with now.

Any help is appreciated!!!

[dadtotheend]

-What happens next after the case conference?

Did you go to the Family Information Session? The whole process is spelled out there for you. If not, do a search on "case management" in this forum to get a take on the process. You may have one or more case conferences, motions, settlement conferences, trial management conference, exit pre-trial conference, and ultimately a trial. Only 3% of cases get to trial.

-If one judge stated his opinion is that indicative of how all judges will rule this case?

Theoretically, the judge may give an opinion as to how everything will play out, therefore yes it is supposed to be indicative. Practically, the judge is not hearing evidence that is tested and is not in a position to weigh the validity of the evidence. Judges tend to more candid with their feelings in a case conference because that is not a formal proceeding that will form part of the continuing record. Therefore they can be quite animated, even a prick, and it will not come back to haunt them because it's not part of the formal record. Therefore, what a judge says in a case conference does not necessarily predict how a trial judge will rule.

Also keep in mind that a judge before whom you appear at a case conference or motion is disqualified from being that judge at trial. So take consolation from the fact that the judge you saw is not allowed to be the same one that ultimately would decide, should it get to trial.

-If it goes to trial will he actually get to tell his side or will they just ignore him there too and award her all this money and him no time with his kids?

Absolutely he will get to tell his side at trial, there are rules of civil procedure that operate to ensure that both sides get to present their case.

-Shouldn't his lawyer have interjected with his issues to make sure they were heard? (like denial of access and her not filing for SS or CS for the 2 girls until he brought the access issue to the judge at the end of the 12 months)?

Maybe the lawyer knows this judge and to have piped up would have been useless. No substantive order was made anyway so as horrible as the judge was, it hasn't prejudiced you in any significant way, just scared the hell out of you.

The best thing he can do right now is to educate himself on the process and put the bad outcome behind him, since it hasn't done anything bad yet, except scare him. Knowledge is power.

I had one really wacked judge at a case conference and it scared me too. She pressured me into agreeing to something really dumb that set my case back. But in the end, reason and the right result prevailed after lots of other court activity.

[exceptiontotherules]

Thank you for that insight and sharing what happened to you...we are both feeling a little more at ease now understanding what happened. We came out of there wondering how in the world they could say what they did.

[#1StepMom]

Exceptiontotherules, I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. I know exactly what you're going through. My husband's case conference was also pretty bad, and we came out of the courtroom wondering how they could say what they did say as well. He was imputed income to pay a child support amount that he cannot reasonably cover. (I have been paying close to 100% of all of our expenses so that he can pay the ordered amount.) The judge ordered this amount because she "felt" he "could possibly" get such a high paying position given his education and licensing. He has been out of a job (applying for positions daily, attending interviews weekly) since October. The amount of child support the judge ordered is almost triple what he should be obligated to pay according to the guidelines and the amount of EI benefits he receives. But, this particular judge did not think that appropriate, so she ordered an amount she thought was "fair" to the support recipient, and ordered my husband to continue providing all transportation to and from visits (at close to 100km one way) as well. But enough about that. I'm sure the judge gave your BF a date for a settlement conference, as well as a list of documents he is expected to file before that date. Basically, the settlement conference is your next step in the process. I do hope you can "settle" in a fair manner and that things start turning up for you and your BF. Good luck!

[dadtotheend]

The amount of child support the judge ordered is almost triple what he should be obligated to pay according to the guidelines and the amount of EI benefits he receives.

Surely this was an order made on consent of the parties if it was at a case conference. Was your ex represented at the case conference? A lawyer would have politely declined to agree to that amount. Unfortunately the pressure that is exerted by the judge in some of these conferences intimidates the parties into agreement.

It's only afterward after your head stops reeling that you realize you got screwed. There's no way a judge should be ordering triple the table amount. They usually follow the guidlelines very closely.

[#1StepMom]

Surely this was an order made on consent of the parties if it was at a case conference. Was your ex represented at the case conference? A lawyer would have politely declined to agree to that amount. Unfortunately the pressure that is exerted by the judge in some of these conferences intimidates the parties into agreement.

It's only afterward after your head stops reeling that you realize you got screwed. There's no way a judge should be ordering triple the table amount. They usually follow the guidlelines very closely.

Consent? More like disbelief and not knowing what to say or do - the joys of self-representation. I'm sure if we had a lawyer, there would have been an objection, but the judge did not even give my husband a chance to speak after she stated her "recommendations" on the amount he is to pay, based on her 'belief' that it costs at minimum $1,000/month to raise a child and that each parent should be responsible for at least half that amount. And since he does not live alone and therefore doesn't have to incure all living expenses. Upon hearing this, my husband was - sad but true - a dear in headlights, not able to speak or move. You're dead on with it being intimidation. He was beyond intimidated.

[exceptiontotherules]

This is exactly what happened and why I posted initially, he was absolutely terrified after what the judge was saying and ready to go hang himself! No extra time with the kids (other than the sad amount she allows him now) and she gets almost his entire paycheque while he is stuck with all the marital debt and paying for an extra two kids that are not even his.

The problem is, with this judge telling her she can get everything, they are farther away from a settlement than when they went in there. She actually told him her intention was to "financially and emotionally ruin" him. If the judge had agreed with my bf on any of the points important to her, she would be just as scared as us and a settlement could be made. Now, she is so high on herself it is ridiculous and taking less than what she feels was 'promised' to her in this case conference just isn't going to happen.

They are trying to argue that he be assessed at double what he makes too, except that was all overtime and bonuses which the company he works for has permanently eliminated. On top of that he is down to 4 days per week (with salary adjusted to match) and soon to be 3 days per week.

Your story is why we haven't moved in together yet either as I have a good job (which I am hoping to maintain through this economic crisis) and I don't want my income to be included in their calculation. However, I am sure at some point we won't have a choice. When they added it all up he would be left with less than $500 per month after CS and SS are paid, the rest of what he makes would go to her. This judge also stated he could do all the driving even though she would be getting all his money which I thought was real nice too. Luckily, he lives closer than you do.

As for his case, there was no date for a settlement conference set or anything. Right now, she has to get support orders from the biological fathers for the other two kids that aren't his (as she never bothered to get any for 14 and 18 years respectively even for the year after she told him to get out and has been on her own) and that has to be disclosed to the court. This is why I was wondering what would happen next. I will look into the great information posted here to give us some knowledge to fight with.

I can understand why you self-represented, he's paying for his lawyer but even with the lawyer they couldn't get a word in at all. The judge bought her story without hearing his side or looking at evidence when none of it is true. (It doesn't help that his ex is a compulsive liar, I'm not real sure how you combat that???)

I can't even believe how your husband can be ordered to pay more than what he makes although after our case conference it does seem more plausible and completely injust.

Unfortunately, with the way the system is setup it is not geared for the "working poor". If you scam the government, lying about your income (as she does) then they throw you money for court. If you have an honest living and a job then you are left to try and pay for your own attorney racking up the bills as you go or defend yourself. She also gets a higher priced lawyer as she isn't paying for it.

I am a woman but going through this with my bf and reading these posts online, I know the system is messed up. I think initially the intention was there to try and 'level the playing field' but somewhere along the way application of the law and interpretation got distorted. Not to mention, they didn't account for all the dishonest people (men or women) making these claims.

[dadtotheend]

That is too bad, but also the pitfall of being self-represented. He could have declined to agree to that amount and nothing would have happened. The judge would not have ordered it.

Check your court order. It's probably an agreement on consent. He sure didn't feel like but he did consent.

[stillafamily]

I have a very similar court case going on but I am on the other side of the situation and although I can appreciate all of the responses it always makes it difficult when only one side is heard and better yet from a third party.

I was married for 8 years,also and my husband knew before we got married that my children(that were 4 and 7 at the time)did not see their biological father's and that the youngest child had not seen her father nor been involved with her father. My boyfriend at the time had a daughter at that time(that he found out 7 years later was not his and he decided to not have anything to do with her)and we had decided that we would all be a family and it was discussed in depth as to the fact we would try to get custody of his daughter and would have my two girls and then we would probably have one more child,together. My husband and I had talked about adoption of my daughter's but it was just not something we ever did as we were a family regardless of the paperwork involved as the bio father's were not involved. My first husband did pay child support and did so ,regardless of the fact he did not see his daughter throughout our marriage.


My husband has paid his child support but also cut it back in January of this year with no notification to myself,therefore I had no warning it would be going down 400 per month,at this time we still have not court ordered child support.

We signed a seperation agreement that had support for our biological children along with payment's on vehicle's that were bought during the marriage. My husband when he left did tell me that he did not want the girls put into the agreement but would do everything that he could to support them as well as help me in any way that he could(this happened once). I tried through my lawyer(original)lawyer to have a mediation meeting with lawyers,myself and my ex-husband but he was not interested and his lawyer never responded to repeated attempts to have a meeting,therefore at this time my lawyer decided she did not want to go to court and I had to find a new lawyer. My husband also asked for the vehicle I was driving back if I could not pay for it and that he would have the bank take it or he would sell it(he drove this vehicle right up until the early part of this year). The camper was not in my possession and he moved it to his residence and I see no reason why I should be paying for something that he has in his possession and that he and his girlfriend,himself and her son will be using. The car he has he owns,which was mostly paid for during the marriage and originally my vehicle was traded in on his first vehicle that was traded in on his vehicle that he now owns.

I did not work during the duration of our marriage ,at the beginning my husband did not live in Canada and lived in the US and drove back and forth between Canada and the US. During the first two years of our marriage I had our oldest son,and he still did not live here,therfore I was not working for the first 2 years. After our son was approximately 10 months old I did bring in babysitting children but when our daughter died in 2005 we decided that we would make the move back to the US and the babysitting was drastically reduced.(to only 1 and periodic part time children)

My husband for the past 3 years has made over 80,000 and continued to only pay me the 1200 per month(although he did pay that).

Mind you my husband does not have a huge amount of negative equity as his car is paid of,and he allowed the truck to be repossesed(as he had told me that once his car was paid off he would be paying for the truck anyhow..which was last July)so if the vehicle was going to be repossesed it would have been regardless if I was paying for it or not. As I stated the camper he has is being stored at his parent's home and is in use by him. The two vehicles were in his name,along with the camper and the 2 credit cards are paid off. We had no home together so I do not feel he is carry a huge debt load.

My husband decided that he would no longer come to my home to pick up his son's and so he did not see them for a prolonged period of time but I clearly stated to him every access night and weekend that his son's were available to him and that there was not a problem in him seeing our son's for his regular access. I must admit though that I do follow the court order as it is laid out now(which is temporary). My husband has taken our son's to visit his family on two seperation occassions to the US and he has picked them up early on his day's off as well as his regular weekend access.

I do not know about your bf but my husband has totally ingnored the two older girls for the last year if not more,and this is a man that he called the gwo girls his daughter's and acted as their father and the youngest girl knew nobody else but my husband as her father so it has been very devastating for both of the girl's. We were at an appointment the other day and he sat there only a few feet away from them and did not even bother to say hello. The judge did state that re-establishing a relationship with both girls was very important as both girls were at a very difficult time in their lives right now and could use all of the support that they can get. My husband's family has totally ignored both of the girls since the day my husband decided to leave.

I believe my husband's income has changed ,also but am not 100% convinced it will remain changed for the duration of his employment and when my lawyer added up his income for the year it was still in the 70,000 bracket,but he has stated he will make approximately 60,000. I believe his pay stub still had his bonus's on there but I could be wrong. I know that my husband believes that I have lied on my financial statement also but it is hard to lie about true and actual outcome of money when most of it goes to bills and as we lived together and were married for 8 years he is aware of the monthly bills as I still rent the same home that we were in while married.

My husband has been taping all interactions with myself(which i have just recently found out) and with our son's and I believe he has lot's of documentation also but as stated above each and every access time I let him know that he was more than welcome to pick up the boys and that they were available to him. Documentation is what he has documented as is what your boyfriend has documented and both parties can document at the same time and have totally different takes on what happened,the unfortunate part of seperation

I am on legal aid myself and I know first hand that legal aid is not that easy to get and you must prove that your income is as you state. As for your comments on her lawyer I believe a lawyer is suppose to fight for your case as that is what they are there for. Having and using legal aid is not something to be proud of or happy that you have to be in that positon.

It is good to hear that he is not opposed to paying for his children but it seems as in my case to whom he was a parent to there is a fine line and in my case my husband did act as my girl's father so I am on the other side of the fence. My husband does not pay his child support on weekend's when he has his son's even when I have asked for it because I require it so again a different side of the story.

Your other post states he is left with no money after paying for his children,the other two children and the debt but I thought it was mentioned no order was made as of yet including an order for his biological children.

In my position the tables are turned and just thought I would offer another side to a much similar situation.

Seperation and divorce are a very unfortunate thing but we all make it through it and in the end we all become stronger. Perhaps it will work out for everyone involved.








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[stillafamily]

I would like to just add to my message that the Seperation Agreement we had signed did not have my daughter's wavied for child support nor did it wave Spousal Support it was temporary as my husband told me he would not leave if it was not signed and neither of us had legal council as it was printed offline

[thistoshallpass]

The cost of going to trial.........

Reading the posts here and having recently been on this same road under similar circumstances. Just wanted to give a heads up on the cost of going to trail. My BF wanted his day in court, and felt he needed to do this so he could explain his side……big mistake….9 months and $49,000 later and he is no further forward. Other than the addition of 1 extra week in the summer, which is great for him and the kid’s. We are now convinced that my BF lawyer, was not working for him. This lawyer has been in family law for many years and should have been well versed in what my BF could expect after the first case conference, which also did not go well in his favor. The judge made several recommendations although nothing in an order., he also stated that he was confident that his colleagues would make similar rulings should it go to trial. At that point my BF’s lawyer should have dissuaded him from going to trial and trying to come to some kind of a settlement with his ex, which was offered by the other sides lawyer at the settlement conf. Also my BF tried to bring in a motion after first case conf which was denied and he had to pay all costs which was an additional $1200. My BF has also considered going bankrupt, but we have been told that doing this will not eliminate any order for SS or CS. A bit of a horror story but it can and did happen.