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Financial Issues This forum is for discussing any of the financial issues involved in your divorce.

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  #1  
Old 11-24-2011, 11:06 AM
Mark1968 Mark1968 is offline
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Default How to request disclosure?

As per my court order from 2009, my ex is required to provide me with school records and medical records for my child. I am required to provide ex with my tax assessment.

I have not provided ex with my assessment but since 2009 have lost my job and am making significantly less but still paying support on old amount Since the order in 2009 I have had no contact with ex or my child but for a voice mail left by the ex within a week of the order advising me that if I want any information I can go through her lawyer. Then a month later a voice mail telling me she is giving up custody to children's aid. Custody was returned to ex within a year. Via children's aid I learned that my child has failed all classes that year, in fact, part of the reason children's aid was involved with because of truancy.

My child is now almost 19 and not in post secondary school. I send a request to FRO to stop payments but ex advised she still feels entitled to the cs.

I want to ask for disclosure of the school and medical records I am entitled to prior to retaining a lawyer so that I have proof of marks and attendence. How do I request this info so that I have a paper trail of having done so in case this goes to court, as it will since ex is entitled to legal aid is drags everything out.

Secondly, now that my child is 19 can I realisitcally expect to stop paying based on non attendence in post secondary, poor marks, non attendance, etc in high school. Not having graduated from high school. I don't mind continuing cs if there was some hope for my child to finally smarten up and try to achieve something in life. Right now I don't feel I should pay for a bum and this is the same way I would feel even if I had custody. If you don't want to go to school and learn, get a job. That's the way I was raised. I went to school and had a job on top of that and that's what I expect of my children, of course the law is different.

Can someone offer me some insight based on their own examples.
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:04 PM
WorkingDAD WorkingDAD is offline
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just request it from school and doctors - not your ex...
but in parallel request it from your ex to have some paper trail who did not follow court order.
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:28 PM
ddol1 ddol1 is offline
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Mark1986
your issue is straight forward really. First is your seperation agreement or divorce order - anything that stipulated when CS was to stop. If you read the Child Support Act it has a very easy to understand description of when and under what conditions you are allowed to stop the CS. It has all the steps you need to make to do so as well. Like it is frowned on to just stop paying. You get the proper release (I believe it is from the court) that will give the date your obligation will end, notify the FRO so they do not become your worst nightmare and your EX.

By then, if she doesn't like it then as they say tough!!! Sounds like she likes the money - now you want it to end she will have less every month(to spend it where ever she spends her money these days) Or can we say soon say, "spend your money!!!" Oops , can't because by then you will get to keep your money for you!

I am like you - go to school or work. I add one more thing - go to school, work hard at it, get good grades and otherwise show that you are working as hard as possible - not just taking a free ride off of mom and dad -- School is not cheap and education should not be wasted!
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:48 PM
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Rioe Rioe is offline
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I have no useful advice, but I would like to give you some food for thought, based on what little information you have provided.

Ever considered that you might have contributed to your son being a bum? You have had no contact with him since 2009, you were told that she gave up custody to CAS and didn't try to rescue him from them, obviously there were issues with school and his mother, and you didn't step in to give him any help? From the sounds of it, you washed your hands of any responsibility towards helping him grow from a lazy child to a responsible man.

Now you want to end your financial obligation too, when it's the only help you have ever offered this poor kid? If you want to have hope that he'll smarten up, you have to create that hope by stepping up and working with him.

Yes, legally, your CS obligation to his mother can technically end. But all that would do is take away some of her resources to support a problem you helped create.
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Old 11-24-2011, 10:17 PM
Mark1968 Mark1968 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
I have no useful advice, but I would like to give you some food for thought, based on what little information you have provided.

Ever considered that you might have contributed to your son being a bum? You have had no contact with him since 2009, you were told that she gave up custody to CAS and didn't try to rescue him from them, obviously there were issues with school and his mother, and you didn't step in to give him any help? From the sounds of it, you washed your hands of any responsibility towards helping him grow from a lazy child to a responsible man.

Now you want to end your financial obligation too, when it's the only help you have ever offered this poor kid? If you want to have hope that he'll smarten up, you have to create that hope by stepping up and working with him.

Yes, legally, your CS obligation to his mother can technically end. But all that would do is take away some of her resources to support a problem you helped create.
I wrote this very long, detailed reply to your post but turns out the system logged me out and it disappeared.

So here it goes again. You're correct about having no useful information to give and from the LITTLE I provided you assumed A WHOLE LOT.

When we went to court from 2007 to 2009, the order of 2009 was the culmination of various case conferences etc over the previous two years, I requested to have educational and medical custody of my child. The ex and her lawyer reacted to this as though I was requesting physical custody which I knew I would have no chance of getting. Also the reason we went to court was because ex was claiming I owed 80K in arrears and she went to FRO to collect it despite the fact I had been paying it to her directly. She was on welfare for a number of years and did not claim it so it would not be clawed back from her cheque.

The judge laughed me out of court, figuratively. During one case conference the ex was questioned by the judge regarding the child's issues and what she is doing about them, she outright lied by telling the court my child had ADD, diagnosed with depression, etc and was medicated as well as receiving therapy. When the judge asked me what I thought was happening with my child I advised that there are issues concerning over medication and enrolment in remedial classes at school despite there being no evidence of any learning disability. I advised I thought laziness and lack of motivation were the culprits. The judge almost jumped out of her seat to tell me off about my PRESUMPTIONS! Sometimes when there is no motivation it is the parent's job to push, which is what I did when my child started high school and began flunking out, so that is what caused the break down of our relationship starting in 2007.

Now, when children's aid took over custody -- per request of the child as there was a choice between going to the grandparent's house, my house or an aunt's house and my child decided against all three due to the fact that all three households have rules -- I finally received all medical information, which I had requested via court and been denied by ex. All the medical information proved what I had said all along, there was no depression, ADD or any learning disability. There were instances of medication being prescribed without justification or clinical proof for their need. My child was diagnosed with ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, which was aimed strictly at the mother.

The behavioural issues started when my ex had a daughter with her boyfriend, our son was 9 at that time There was extreme jealousy and acting out. There were instances when the ex would call me to come over and help her discipline our son after vulgar or violent outbursts, I would do so and the ex never backed me up. In one instance I took away his tv and nintendo, literally removed them from his room and what do you think the ex did? She consoled him, told him I didn't mean it and put them right back into his room. In 2005 I discussed with the ex that we can no longer buy pets for him because he is killing them, mostly via neglect but there were other issues as well. At this time our son wanted to replace a rat and rabbit that had died, I told the ex we should under no circumstances buy anymore pets and she agreed. So I put my foot down with my son and he stopped talking to me for weeks. In the meantime my ex's boyfriend bought him the rat and rabbit he needed replaced. When I confronted the ex she told me she had no control over other people's actions.

My son was removed from the home because of violence towards his half sister, he had attacked her with scissors, knives, etc. over several months. He had kicked her bedroom door off the hinges in order to attack her. He had also attacked his mother on numerous occasions. He attacked me once, back in 2005 and we resolved the issue. While he never attacked his half brother at my home (at the time I only had one child with my now wife) he often made fun of him and there was a general feeling of indifference towards him although no physical attacks took place. The one time he did attack me had nothing to do with my behaviour, he was angry his mother did not tell him he was spending the weekend at my house and not just one day.

Since I lost my job in 2009 I have been paying cs based on my previous income, which was 75% more than I was receiving in EI benefits. I haven't found comparable employment since I lost my job. I've done a few sub contracts but again, what I brought into my current household prior to 2009 was significantly more. But for the fact that I am remarried and my wife works I would not be able to support myself and pay cs at the current level. After cs I am left with less than 8K annually to contribute to my household, where I live and have two young children. I know my wife is getting sick of picking up the slack. She was very ill during her pregnancy with our second child yet worked hours of overtime to ensure we could meet our bills and pay my cs. Should I be paying for an almost 19 year old who is too lazy to work or go to school? In fact who has not been in a full time school program since the age of 16 bu tstill has only had 2 months of part time employment in his life.

Quite frankly, he should work and go to school. My current wife comes from a single parent household, she worked from grade 8 on. She worked full time during university and did not expect her parent to pay for everything because there was no money. I also have worked since 16 and put myself through college, while in high school my mother would not pay for extracullicular activities such as sports. I had to pay for everything myself and study and pass my courses. So quite frankly I don't agree with your assessment that there is an excuse for a 19 year old to be still in high school with only half the credits to graduate because I am to blame for not being in his life. He has no job but has a blackberry with fb access and is able to go out regularly. My wife (and I, is what I should say but in fact I cannot make a contribution at this point) had to give up making resp contributions to our children's resp to pay for my bum son who sleeps till noon, does not go to school but does have time to get numerous tattoos and piercings and just hang out. And you know what, I grew up without a father in my life, I am not a bum. My wife's mother died when she was 5, her father never remarried and remained a single parent and she is doing quite fine.

So even if I had emotionally deserted my son as you claim and had no contact with him, only given financially, he would still be better off than for instance myself and my wife, we both come from single parent households with no involvement from the other parent. My wife's father never remarried, raised her and her siblings to flourish in life and all of them did well in school and had jobs starting in grade school due to the financial situation in the family. Now a days, if you're a single parent with low income you can get CTB of hundreds per child a month, back in the day, it was more like like ten, twenty, thirty per child a month. I was raised by my mother, no dad in the picture, our household was more financially stable but I still had to have a job to support any sports or after school activities I was interested in because my mother would not pay for them. I also put myself through college as my wife did through university. So you know what, I am not sympathetic at all to my 19 year old bum son.

Do I feel I am to blame for my son's behaviour? No. I lost my job prior to my son being born, by the time my EI had run out my ex left me and moved in with her sister and a boyfriend. My child was less than one year old at the time. I've had regular access while there was no live in boyfriend situation, that always changed when a boyfriend moved in and there have been many regular boyfriends. I've tried getting through to the ex regarding discipline, making sure we backed each other up, etc....none of this has worked. She wants to be a friend and not a parent. She did not graduate from high school so she feels it's okay for our son to go that route as well, she told me, when I suggested we set up an resp that "she'll be happy if he graduates from high school". What kind of expectations are those? Ironically enough, ex comes from a two parent household and her parents are still together today.
  #6  
Old 11-24-2011, 10:32 PM
Mark1968 Mark1968 is offline
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Originally Posted by WorkingDAD View Post
just request it from school and doctors - not your ex...
but in parallel request it from your ex to have some paper trail who did not follow court order.
This is the exact wording from my order :...mother XXX, shall provide all medical and educational information regarding the child to the father, on an ongoing basis. The father, XXX, may meet all professionals involved with the child...."

Is this sufficient to request the information from the school, as well as medical professionals directly? I always assumed that it was not enough because it states it's the mother who needs to provide it, as though to imply it cannot be obtained directly via the school, etc. My ex did warn me that any info I need needs to addressed via her lawyer, she had legal aid and I don't, she did this at the end of our case whe she knew I was completely tapped out financially and could not afford to retain a lawyer again to request this info.

Now, if I were to request the info via my son's school. Do I simply send a letter with a copy of the court order?

I was planning on sending form 20 to ex via registered mail, is that something I should consider or simply send a letter requesting the info via registered mail?

My CS order falls under the Family Law Act and in theory the Family Law Act requires for a child to be in full time attendance at a post secondary school in order to remain a child under the Act. I've read many, many cases on Canlaw which have proven that post secondary school enrollement is not neccessary. In fact, as per the cases I read, my son can stay in high school and be a bum for the next 5 years and I will be liable for child support because he has had a hard life and is "disabled". Once he smartens up and decides to apply himself I will still be liable because he'll now actually be in post secondary.

I'm also curious if I can recoup the cs I paid to ex while my son was in foster care. She told me she wasn't giving it up because she had to give up her child tax benefit, which at the time was almost $400 per month just for him. So the gov't took the money that they freely give to support my son away but I was still liable for paying cs. A very equitable system.
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Old 11-24-2011, 10:46 PM
WorkingDAD WorkingDAD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1968 View Post
This is the exact wording from my order :...mother XXX, shall provide all medical and educational information regarding the child to the father, on an ongoing basis. The father, XXX, may meet all professionals involved with the child...."

Is this sufficient to request the information from the school, as well as medical professionals directly? I always assumed that it was not enough because it states it's the mother who needs to provide it, as though to imply it cannot be obtained directly via the school, etc. My ex did warn me that any info I need needs to addressed via her lawyer, she had legal aid and I don't, she did this at the end of our case whe she knew I was completely tapped out financially and could not afford to retain a lawyer again to request this info.

Now, if I were to request the info via my son's school. Do I simply send a letter with a copy of the court order?

I was planning on sending form 20 to ex via registered mail, is that something I should consider or simply send a letter requesting the info via registered mail?

My CS order falls under the Family Law Act and in theory the Family Law Act requires for a child to be in full time attendance at a post secondary school in order to remain a child under the Act. I've read many, many cases on Canlaw which have proven that post secondary school enrollement is not neccessary. In fact, as per the cases I read, my son can stay in high school and be a bum for the next 5 years and I will be liable for child support because he has had a hard life and is "disabled". Once he smartens up and decides to apply himself I will still be liable because he'll now actually be in post secondary.

I'm also curious if I can recoup the cs I paid to ex while my son was in foster care. She told me she wasn't giving it up because she had to give up her child tax benefit, which at the time was almost $400 per month just for him. So the gov't took the money that they freely give to support my son away but I was still liable for paying cs. A very equitable system.

Children’s Law Reform Act

Quote:
Access
(5) The entitlement to access to a child includes the right to visit with and be visited by the child and the same right as a parent to make inquiries and to be given information as to the health, education and welfare of the child. R.S.O. 1990, c. C.12, s. 20 (5).
and

Responding to requests for children’s medical records


Quote:
Access parents are entitled to the same information as the custodial parent unless the court orders otherwise.
but this will not work with hospitals as they govern by Personal Health Information and Protection Act, 20041 Section 23 (1) (2)

Quote:
"parent" does not include a parent who has only a right of access to the child. 2004, c. 3, . Sched. A, s. 23 (2).
yes you may send copy of order to show that you at least access parent.
  #8  
Old 11-24-2011, 10:50 PM
Mark1968 Mark1968 is offline
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Originally Posted by ddol1 View Post
Mark1986
your issue is straight forward really. First is your seperation agreement or divorce order - anything that stipulated when CS was to stop. If you read the Child Support Act it has a very easy to understand description of when and under what conditions you are allowed to stop the CS. It has all the steps you need to make to do so as well. Like it is frowned on to just stop paying. You get the proper release (I believe it is from the court) that will give the date your obligation will end, notify the FRO so they do not become your worst nightmare and your EX.!
The Act is straight forward, the case law is not. I would prefer to represent myself as I have spend too much on my previous case, I just can't afford a lawyer at the moment, and I don't see how I can file a motion to end support when my child has been "disadvantaged" and does sporatically attend high school classes in an attempt to graduate by the time he's 22.

By then, if she doesn't like it then as they say tough!!! Sounds like she likes the money - now you want it to end she will have less every month(to spend it where ever she spends her money these days) Or can we say soon say, "spend your money!!!" Oops , can't because by then you will get to keep your money for you!

You know what's funny, her child tax benefit ended when our son turned 18 and yet I am still paying, it would be okay if it was for his benefit. It is in the sense that he has a blackberry and fancy stuff despite no job but is that really a long term solution in the long run. I don't see why you would induldge a child who refuses to accept responsibility.

I am like you - go to school or work. I add one more thing - go to school, work hard at it, get good grades and otherwise show that you are working as hard as possible - not just taking a free ride off of mom and dad -- School is not cheap and education should not be wasted![/quote]

And yet, according to case law, it's possible to just go to school and fail a few courses and not have a job and still receive cs and all/majority of section 7 paid for. So it's really a bit catch 22.
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