section 7: music lessons, computer and lifestyle

[roxyroller71]

Im so confused.
Am I expecting too much or what? I need a wake up call here...so tell me off with some hard truths!!

My ex pays child support and his income is at 175,000
He receives deductions for work car expenses and travel to visit his son as he lives out of province. So his income is based with my agreement at 150.
Section seven is prorated for child care etc while I work or attend school.
I make 45,000 working 2 jobs.

Obviously our standard of living is different.
In the negotiation for a parenting agreement that we BOTH initialed but he refuses to wrap up. He is garnished for non payment etc....we agreed that he would pay 1200 per yr for activities and we would consult each other etc for anything over that. I would need his permission for any incurring expense after this. I was hoping he would just start a clean slate (esp financially) but in the end wont sign off on anything.

I have asked which activity he supports and which he doesn't to help keep with in his portion and the "cap" of 1200.00. No response.

He doesn't communicate and doesn't bother with much parenting or involvement just shows up for visits.

The activities for the last few years are swim class (350.00), Greek school ($150), music specifically violin (1100.) and karate (700.00).
I pay and enroll and submit the receipt to my ex.
I also cover the added on costs such as camping with his school, mad science club, study skills workshop, any and all afterschool clubs and any out of pocket activities mandatory through the school for excursions etc...
Overall just about 2600.00 per yr.

My ex is classically trained from he conservatory. I have no music skills but my son enjoys it and has been in violin now for 6+ yrs and is 11 yrs old.

I ask for feedback, inform, provide the info and basically budget as best as I could. He doesn't bother and doesn't respond. Once it hit the $1200 I emailed numerous times with no response.
Basically the costs have come to approx. 2600 per yr more or less.
With his portion would be approx. 80% and pays each month the $1200 with child support.

I emailed last week, asking for him to please pay his portion and that I required payment for outstanding of whatever over and above the $1200 for his portion etc. I rather be paid then have to spend money with a lawyer to try to get reimbursed.
We are on myfamilywizard.com and they have account tracking/receipt uploads and the message posts, plus calendar. So everything is uploaded in a timely manner by me.

He replied to my email asking for payment of the outstanding!
He replied that he knows his rights and that he will not be paying his portion or whatever is outstanding and that if I want that money I will have to take him to court to get it and it would be my son losing out bc Im wasting money.
Basically leaving me paying and out of pocket.

This worries me and I am confused. Previously he has thrown that he lives a completely different lifestyle then me. But in reality I am in a better financial position since my debt load is minimal. He has a new wife and child PLUS huge house, 3 cars etc. I am alone with my son and work a second job to help pay these costs...PLUS I pay tuition to a semi private school, uniforms, hot lunches etc.

I was under the impression that he also had an obligation to help with activities and extraordinary expenses such as a new computer that's is needed (hopefully later next yr once I can save up for it).
My lawyer says this isn't an extraordinary expense.
The balance is very tilted here as I am paying the majority of expenses and make much less money plus working 2 jobs to make ends meet. The kicker is that he wont even help pitch in for a kids birthday party for his son.

[Links17]

How much do you get per month in child support?

[rockscan]

section 7: music lessons, computer and lifestyle

We need a bit more info. Are you in a province that has an agency like fro or mep (ontario or alberta)? Does your agreement stipulate that he has to pay the extra for the items youve listed (ie violin greek school private school etc)? How much does he pay in cs per month? How much more is the cost above the $1200 and is he actually paying the $1200?

Im confused why you point out all his tax deductions. Is his line 150 $175,000 or does he make more than that but only claims that?

Also you DONT have an agreement for all this stuff? It hasnt been filed?

[roxyroller71]

It is garnished by MEP but they can't do the recalculation as its out of province.
I'm in Manitoba and he is in Quebec.

Child support is garnished at 407.00 per month.
My ex mails a personal cheque each month for 871.00
Total of 1278.00 per month.
And 100 each month for activities.
We follow Quebec guidelines.
Then proportionate child care paid monthly as well. On this I also get grief for summer daycamps as there is no care available and I need care while I work.

Nothing has been filed. It's been ongoing now for 10 yrs.
Rarely am I able to get a tax assessment but last one did say $174,000.
His bonuses are about 30,000 and that's supposed to be included. I am aware of him hiding money and have proof of it but who cares. And his car expenses is part of his company contract and reimbursed. The travel expenses to visit his son are also deducted off child support and his costs are also covered via his work as business.

I don't want to quibble BUT I have accepted the deductions off child support from 174 to 150. I also expect it to change again and accept its a good chunk of money.
I didn't cause issue with the "misleading" stuff and just settled with the agreement that we would communicate and coordinate. But since he hasn't isn't he obligated to help with section 7 and extraordinary expenses etc?

??? Right?

Maybe it didn't matter since we only initialled a copy and nothing was filed? He doesn't want to file by then he would be garnished and in contempt on almost every aspect of the agreement.
It's mind boggling and I don't want to sit and get aggravated BUT I also don't want to be fighting in court and wasting money later on.
Best get an earful now and eat humble pie for being a jerk.

[rockscan]

Im still confused. You dont have an actual agreement but his wages are garnished?

I think you should speak to a lawyer about the cs amounts. Did he move or did you? Normally cs is reduced if the custodial parent moves.

Personally i think youre living outside your means and trying to hard to give your kid everything. Most kids arent in so many activities when their parent makes 45g a year.

You need to ask yourself how much one kid can do. All the school stuff plus swimming violin karate and greek school? I get that your ex has a big salary but thats not an excuse to spend money you dont have. Plus you cant just sign kid up for stuff and demand repayment.

You also need to get a final agreement done and filed with a clause that he updates annually.

Your lawyer should be fired for going ten years without a final order.

[Links17]

if you live in difference provinces you have to use the Canadian guidelines.

If you know his revenue is X and you accepted CS as Y, you can't complain later.

In regards to your complaints....

You have 2600$ of Gross S7 Expenses
174,000 income 75%
45,000 income - 25%

First you have to calculate what the NET expenses are:
2600 - whatever tax deductions (will assume 15% based on child tax credits)

2600*0.85 = 2210 * 0.75 = 1657
and he is paying you 1200. You are short 450$.

On the other hand at least some of these activities are "house league" non competitive activities.

Given the amount of child support you are getting (15,000 per year net = the equivalent of receiving 25,000$ gross). You should be satisfied.

[roxyroller71]

The garnishment was done on the interim order. That was the initial garnishment.
As the the activities: my ex is aware and in agreement with the activities!
That's the kicker!
The informal draft agreement that we initialled acknowledge the variety of activities and even listed a pile of them and had a promise to communicate and coordinate etc.

He just walked away and claims its capped at the $1200 that's part of his portion And refuses to pick or provide any guidance. That amount was the amount that was to be added on to the garnishment of child support just so I could get it in advance and not be stiffed.
And I'm stiffed in any case.
No one is signing up and demanding repayment. It's been activities that over the years have been consistent and the same. And my ex is in agreement and supports my son attending!
And if that's the case and he agrees with them...why would I be left with the outstanding portion?

As activities: it sounds more then it is. I don't want to give a full explanation of activities and to the why and when. But they are fine and normal.
And saying all that...I know my ex will stiff me....I have come to expect it And know I will be out of pocket....so to offset that I got a second job for the shortage that my ex leaves me with. To be honest im financially ok....the only bill I have is my legal bill. My savings and finances are good and so is my son with his savings etc.

[rockscan]

section 7: music lessons, computer and lifestyle

You need a final order. Get your lawyer to get moving on that.

CS table amount for 150 is 1223. Thats about 25000 per year. That would cover the school costs (lunches etc). The extra activities are just that--extraordinary so you have to say to yourself, would a judge find it unreasonable for me to ask for more when im at 70g per year?

Its been ten years you say and your kid is 11? So youve been going on activities decided ten years ago? Most people on here have a final agreement for activities that are agreed to. You said he isnt communicating with you. So did he agree to each activity when you signed him up each cycle or are you going on the interim order agreed to?

Im not trying to be difficult. You came here asking if it was unreasonable but you arent explaining enough or you havent finalized an agreement and are making decisions based on that. What happened ten years ago was then. You need a final order that outlines everything.

[Qrious]

Roxyroller - you shouldnt have to explain to us WHY your child is enrolled in whatever activities they're enrolled in, anyway. Your question was around legalities of S7 expenses, not our opinion of how many things your child should be involved in. If you and X were still together, and he makes $150+ and you make $50, would anyone quesiton that amount for annual activities? No. Youre trying to make sure your child is not paying the price for his/her parents split. Good job. JMHO.

[rockscan]

Roxyroller - you shouldnt have to explain to us WHY your child is enrolled in whatever activities they're enrolled in, anyway. Your question was around legalities of S7 expenses, not our opinion of how many things your child should be involved in. If you and X were still together, and he makes $150+ and you make $50, would anyone quesiton that amount for annual activities? No. Youre trying to make sure your child is not paying the price for his/her parents split. Good job. JMHO.

But from what shes saying, they split when kid was 1. They have never signed a final agreement.

[roxyroller71]

The interim order was when my son was about 1.5 yrs old. That was the garnishment start since he immediately didn't want to pay. (I left our joint owned home, furniture and car and walked out) I took the crib and anything I owned prior to The relationship. Which caused him grief be he wanted the crib.
Nothing was on it about anything outside that we were joint and child support. It's minimal.
Onwards: We did mediation and had a unsigned agreement.
I spent yrs sending various agreements with each and every modification he wanted and no signature. Agreement after agreement. $$$$$ to lawyer and more $$$$
Case conference after case conference. $$$$$

I guess in 2011/2012 we went to case conference again me chasing. At that time 32,000 was owed to me. Judge FINALLY made it go to court and prior to it going to court we had a 4way conferee meeting and hashed out a draft parenting agreement, signed at that time by BOTH lawyers.
We ran out of time that day and stuff was in there that was signed off by both lawyers that should have been fixed but wasn't. I forgave 32,000 outstanding and settled on 5,000 plus the deductions (travel and car) etc. With the agreement that he would start fresh and pay in timely manner. Etc.

Then back and forth to a draft that was initialled by both of us.
But still draft. And this was to appease the judge and cancel court trail date.
I follow and he doesn't.

Again more case conferences and no agreement signed and no final order to be placed in front of judge to sign off and get garnishment updated.
The "agreement" that we initialled in2011/2012 did have a breakdown of the activities my son was in which included Greek school, Scouts, violin and swim, gymnastics etc. My ex also is required to take my son to the activities. And he also is forced to communicate via a court monitored website which tracks everything including expense report, w receipts and notifications of activities, parenting issues, medical anything and asking for feedback etc. And he ignores or occasionally spews something to make me worry.
I do my part and follow what I agreed to. I thought that's what ppl do. It's the law, right?

My ex is a narcissistic socio path. I budget and financially pretty good and we are an active household. Even with second job and paying those activities....What is the drain is the legal fees! And I'm still paying off 2014! So I'm hoping I can lay low and just tuff it out until that bill is paid.

Where does this legal madness take me with these grey areas in section seven and what constitutes extraordinary or not. Are these activities needed or normal? Why wouldn't they be? What's the issue and why am I asked for explanations? And with us both making decent money....what's the issue on paying the agreed portion? There s an assumption of signing up kids and forcing payment....yet for some people they are forced and have to pay yet...not me..? .I can't seem to force anyone to pay even if it was agreed to half assed?

Basically the legality of trying to get out of paying this really stumps me esp with such a high income and why there seems to be such a grey area on section 7 extraordinary costs etc. Why it's applicable to one family and not another? Why some parents at forced to pay and others have to explain? He makes so much money and gets a break? How about that lower income parent that's forced?
i don't get it.

I appreciate the feedback.

[Janus]

Why some parents at forced to pay and others have to explain? He makes so much money and gets a break? How about that lower income parent that's forced?
i don't get it.

I appreciate the feedback.

You are confusing extracurricular and extraordinary.

Extracurricular - covered by CS (since it is "ordinary")
Extraordinary - Section 7, paid on top of CS

If you get more in CS, then more activities are "ordinary". If you get less in CS, then fewer activities are "ordinary".

If you get more in CS, then fewer activities are "extraordinary". If you get less in CS, then more activities are "extraordinary".

Rich people ordinarily put their kids in more activities.

To put it another way, you are getting a lot of child support. You aren't spending it all on food. It is expected that you will spend some of that haul on extracurricular activities. If your ex was only making $30,000 a year, the CS you got would be used for food/shelter with nothing left over so there would be no expectation that the CS would be used for extracurricular activities.

For what it is worth, I think section 7 is ridiculous. Increase the table values and get rid of section 7 altogether. Let the CP decide what expenses are reasonable based on the budget.

[rockscan]

I asked all the questions because it helps to understand.

Most of the time judges look at the lifestyle before divorce. Was the kid in multiple activities etc. thats to determine the standard they were accustomed to before the split. Unfortunately you dont have that so its hard to say "well kid was in all these activities before so its not fair to say no now". So while they *could* be considered extra ordinary, the test isnt there that is normally there for other cases.

Does your ex exercise his access? If no then you could argue for full table support.

You also need to understand that many of the costs you are seeking cant be argued as necessary. Is kid a child prodigy on the violin and wants a future as a concert violinist? Then it could be argued he needs it. If no then theyre not s7. Swimming lessons are necessary for safety but if theyre olympic calibre when red cross offers them for less than he should be in those and theyre covered by cs. Greek school is grey. Private school also can be questioned if there is a good public school nearby.

You have to look at this how an opposing counsel and judge would look at it. You get $25000 a year for food clothing an extras. How your ex lives is irrelevant. What is obligated by the law?

If its not worth the legal fees then its not worth the fight. Your kid will survive without a few things and he will remember his dad was an a-hole.

[HammerDad]

According to your posts you receive $1278 in c/s for one child. At that level many c/s will make many activities that would be s7 for someone who receives $200 a month NOT c/s.

Your activities included:

swimming 350.00 = <$30 a month over the course of a year. While the lessons are a good life skill, they are not necessary and the cost is not extra-ordinary in relation to the incomes of each parent.

Greek school ($150) = $12.50 a month. While it may be a great life skill for the child, it is not necessary and the and the cost is not extra-ordinary in relation to the incomes of each parent.

music specifically violin (1100.) = <$100 a month. That dad is a trained musician and the cost is about $100 a month, I would be inclined to agree that this is s.7. Especially considering any ancillary costs that may be associated with the it (like the cost of violin's, travel etc.)

karate (700.00) = <$60 a month. The cost is not extra-ordinary vs. receiving over $1200 in c/s month, but it may be s7 depending on child's ability and they are training to compete. If is just recreational karate, I don't see this being s7, but it is a grey area.

Added up, you pay just over $200 a month for the above activities. As mentioned, some aren't s7 expenses (swimming and Greek school). Let's say violin is and karate is, that is about $1800 in aggregate s7 expenses which the ex is supposed to pay 75% of, after all tax rebates and deductions you may claim are taken into consideration. Karate qualifies for the child fitness credit, violin classes may qualify for another form of rebate (not sure). Once those rebates are calculated, than your ex would pay 75% of that amount. So if you get $200 in rebates from the gov't because of these activities, that brings the out of pocket expense to $1600, which your ex is covering with the $1200 amount already provided (I note that the rebate amounts were pulled out of the air, they could be more, more likely slightly less, but not enough to quibble about as it would cost more to drag it to court than you would get back).

camping with his school, mad science club, study skills workshop, any and all afterschool clubs and any out of pocket activities mandatory through the school for excursions etc.

None of these activities would be considered s7 given the amount of c/s you receive.

[Links17]

The Court of Ottawa Divorce Renders by Unanimous judgement

Considering that You receive 1280$/mo in child support monthly. The majority of which is paid voluntarily

Considering you have been aware for years of your "ex-spouse's" supposed income and have not challenged it in court and he has sent you pay information at your request nor are you doing so at this point.

Considering that you receive an additional 1200$ for special expenses

Considering that the amount you are are complaining about is 400$/year which in this case comes up to about 2% of the total amount of child support annually.

Considering that in any case the expenses you listed are either somewhat or not ALL S7 expenses and should be paid for out of the child support you receive annually.

Considering you earn 45,000$ and have not made demonstration of any hardship.

We dismiss your motion for 400$ of S7 Expenses

Further we advice you to focus less on what your ex-husband, is, does, or has and move on with your life.

WITH COSTS AGAINST THE PLAINTIFF