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  • Moving to Metro - 30 minutes away

    I would like some advise please. Background: Separated after 20 years in 2006, divorced 2010. Four kids from marriage with shared custody and equal access. Two oldest live with their dad and rarely see me, parental alienation is at play here. Two youngest court ordered visitation of every other week. Having said that, the second my 3rd son turned 12 he chose to live full-time with his dad. All three boys are scared of him and rarely see me.

    In 2003, before we were separated, we were transferred to a suburb from another city because of his work. No family in the area. We live in this suburb while both of us, our oldest son, and my fiancé all currently work the same metropolitan center. My fiancés two children live in metro as well.

    My two youngest kids go to school in the aforementioned suburb (second oldest just graduated high school). I told my ex last year I wanted to move to the metro and transfer the kids to a better school there but he refused school transfer citing the high crime rate (statistically no higher than the suburb we live in). Given the inane excuse, I knew I was in for a fight so I backed off and continued to drive the 2+ hour/day commute.

    Current: Next fall my daughter is moving to another school (elementary to middle). Her best friend is moving to metro and I would love to do the same with her. I would again like to broach the subject of moving/school transfer. My plan is to move to an area central to where we all work and very close to an excellent school for my daughter. How would I go about doing this? Would this be feasible in court?

    As an aside, my second son will be going to post-secondary as well (very close to where I want to relocate) and I told him he can live with us to drastically cut down his commute during the week. Who knows if he takes my offer, his fear of making his dad mad is still deep even though he is now 18.

  • #2
    Would your moving to the metro inconvenience the father? I don't think anyone can control where you move to. Are you obligated to keep your daughter in the same school district?

    Comment


    • #3
      Her father works 8 minutes away from the proposed new school. He could drop her off and pick her up on his way to/from work just as I have done for the last four years. This does not necessitate a change the current order of every other week. I know the court support status quo but she is changing schools anyway, so it is a good opportunity as it will minimize stress for her as she is anticipating a change either way.

      Comment


      • #4
        Sounds reasonable. I don't know anything about the legalities of child access but there are many well-informed individuals on this forum who can give you good guidance.

        If you don't get along with your ex he could make this miserable for you. good luck - hope some people give you and idea of the proper steps to take.

        Comment


        • #5
          Legally you are allowed to move whereever you wish.

          The issue is whether your daughter should change schools. A sub-question is whether the actual reason is because she wants to, or because you want to move her away from her father? Of course you don't want that, but this will come up in negotiatons or if it comes to court, so you need to be prepared for that question and have answers.

          Moving the child's primary residence for the purpose of changing school districts is not cut and dried. Can you show why it is in the child's best interest? That it is a "better" school isn't reason enough. I am sure the current school is decent and a judge would be sure as well. Keep in mind if you want to prove something in court you need factual evidence. Are your daughter's marks below average, below her capability, and can you show this? Are there behavioural issues you can show? You need to be able to show reasons.

          "I think it would be better" is not compelling evidence for the courts.

          Another issue, would this change affect the shared parenting situation? If so, then it is a HUGE issue that you can expect trouble with.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you Mess, this is exactly the feedback I was hoping for.

            Originally posted by Mess View Post
            A sub-question is whether the actual reason is because she wants to, or because you want to move her away from her father?
            I have thought of this and I won't be changing access, so there is no 'moving away' issue other than we will be much closer to his work rather than his residence. Truthfully, we are only moving 20 minutes away, this isn't like a provincial move.

            The move is simply because I want/need to be closer to better supports for her (school and extracurricular) as well as closer to my work... well to everyone's work. My ex, my oldest son and my fiancé all work within 10 blocks of each other which would be 8 minutes from where I want to relocate and fully 20 minutes from where he currently resides. I will ensure I have solid answers for this, especially in regard to benefits to my daughter.

            Originally posted by Mess View Post
            Can you show why it is in the child's best interest? That it is a "better" school isn't reason enough. I am sure the current school is decent and a judge would be sure as well. Keep in mind if you want to prove something in court you need factual evidence. Are your daughter's marks below average, below her capability, and can you show this? Are there behavioural issues you can show?
            This is the catch. The school I am moving her to is truly no different than what she is in currently, academically I mean. She is a gifted student (top of her class) and it is the high school mere blocks away that this school prepares students for that I am interested in. It is an academic high school specifically for honour students. My step-son just graduated from there and it would fit her perfectly!! My ex could argue that any school will prepare her and this is true to an extent, so I have to find a better argument.

            Originally posted by Mess View Post
            Another issue, would this change affect the shared parenting situation? If so, then it is a HUGE issue that you can expect trouble with.
            No, other than my ex will actually have to physically drive my daughter to school before and after work on his weeks. Right now she takes a bus from his house each day. This will reverse what is happening now (I have always had to drive my kids to school or before/after school care). He will adamantly oppose this.

            The other option is my having her weekdays and him having her weekends. I know this will not be acceptable to him either because of the additional child support he would be entitled to pay... a huge factor in his decision making.

            Thanks again for your input.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Momof4:

              Some other message threads you should consider reading in detail that provide some insight into the court's perspective on parental moves such as yours:

              Moving With A Child - Case Law - Habitual Residence

              http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...sidence-14033/

              Interesting Case Law What is "GTA"? - Greater Toronto Area?

              http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...to-area-13018/

              Most notable quote that may be relevant to your situation in my opinion is:

              [42] Relocation to London would allow Ms. Girard the challenge and excitement of initiating a new Apple Store, the opportunity to purchase a house and less daily commute to work. While these factors would convenience Ms. Girard and likely enhance her life-style, it is not her interests that are the focus of this hearing. Moreover, her issues of housing and commute could be well addressed by a residential move to Oakville, Burlington or Mississauga. Relocation to one of these communities would allow Malik to continue his weekly access to his father and afford the child the security and availability of Mr. Blunt, Ms. Cooper and likely favoured uncle Brian on those occasions when Ms. Girard is required to work extra hours in fulfilling her responsibilities as Store Manager.
              I am not trying to be negative but, I do caution you on brining your matter before the Superior Court and to consult with a lawyer prior to moving and attempting to change the child in question's habitual school location.

              There are many factors you have not considered that will be raised in accordance with Rule 24 ("best interests") that you will need to address. One major one is the social impact that this will have on the child to change schools. As well, that you have already established the status quo in driving to the child in question to the school. As well, why you do not move closer to the child's school in the first place and put the burden on you, as a parent, to commute to your employment rather than having the child "commute to school" at either parental residence?

              Be very prepared to answer these questions should the matter escalate. It is not your "best interests" that the court is concerned with but, the child in questions. Be very mindful of this and you should fair well if the matter needs to be resolved through an Application to court.

              Good Luck!
              Tayken
              Last edited by Tayken; 06-12-2013, 12:20 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you so much for your thoughts and the case law links Tayken. I was talking to Arabian last night and she too recommended I search case law on this and you have made that so much easier :-)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                  Thank you so much for your thoughts and the case law links Tayken. I was talking to Arabian last night and she too recommended I search case law on this and you have made that so much easier :-)
                  If you are in Ontario you should familiarize yourself with the Children's Law Reform Act of Ontario as well. In particular Rule 24 ("best interests").

                  Children's Law Reform Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. C.12

                  As well as Rule 22.(1), Rule 22.(2), and Rule 22.(3) which all deal with Jurisdiction.

                  My advice to you momof4 would be to not disrupt the school for the children. This would avoid all conflict with the other parent, keep the children in the school they are familiar with, minimize the disruption to the children and ultimately the other parent would have nothing to lament, complain or petition the court about really.

                  Justices are not keen on disrupting a child's school. The best way, in my personal opinion, to deal with it is to move right next door to the school, demonstrate that your child's "best interests" are at heart and that "your best interests" play second to what the children need. Which in my personal opinion is stability in their school environment, friends and social connections with their school mates and most importantly two parents who are not in court.

                  This is another case you should consider. Although the parental move is interjurisdictional (between provinces) it does provide some insight into what the court considers:

                  Van Rassel v. Van Rassel, 2008 CanLII 37217 (ON SC)
                  Date: 2008-07-23
                  Docket: FS-06-04395-00
                  Parallel citations: 61 RFL (6th) 343
                  URL: CanLII - 2008 CanLII 37217 (ON SC)
                  Citation: Van Rassel v. Van Rassel, 2008 CanLII 37217 (ON SC)

                  Originally posted by Justice Mossip FTW!

                  [1] There is no other area of family law litigation in which the idea of “winner” and “loser” is less applicable than that of mobility cases. It is also true, that even with the very best parents, it is the area where “win-win” solutions can rarely, if ever, be fashioned. Parents involved in a mobility dispute often have to resort to the courts, because even with the best of intentions, and with both parties doing their best to put their child’s interest before their own, they cannot find a solution to the desire of one parent to move with the child, and the other parent vehemently resisting that move.
                  Good Luck!
                  Tayken

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                    If you are in Ontario you should familiarize yourself with the Children's Law Reform Act of Ontario as well.
                    I am in Alberta and there are absolutely no options for renting anywhere near her school. Not only are there no vacancies, rental costs are prohibitive even if I could find one. My options are living further away from my work (where I am now) or moving to the metro I mentioned above.

                    I don't know if you are aware, she will be changing schools either way as she is moving from elementary to middle school.

                    The four mitigating factors for the change I am proposing are:
                    1 The bullies she has had to deal with despite discussions and failed interventions by both my ex and I in the school she is currently in. These three girls will be moving to the middle school in the area that she would be going to if I don't move her to metro.

                    2 The school she wants to go to is superior academically.

                    3 Her best friend is also moving to the metro school. This coupled with #1 are huge motivators for her to move.

                    4 I am unable to get her violin lessons in our current area and there are superb options for her in metro.

                    I realize status quo is a very strong factor and adding to that is her brother (age 12) is already going to the suburb middle school.

                    I know these are not strong reasons, however would her wanting to move at the age of 10 not be a factor?

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      1 The bullies she has had to deal with despite discussions and failed interventions by both my ex and I in the school she is currently in. These three girls will be moving to the middle school in the area that she would be going to if I don't move her to metro.

                      2 The school she wants to go to is superior academically.

                      3 Her best friend is also moving to the metro school. This coupled with #1 are huge motivators for her to move.

                      4 I am unable to get her violin lessons in our current area and there are superb options for her in metro.
                      She is changing schools anyway...she's a gifted student, and after middle school, the high school that is top in the area, and the goal to try and get her into is in the same area as the proposed middle school.

                      She has been bullied by 3 students in particular, you and her father have both tried to intervene - and you have EVIDENCE of this?


                      Do the class times correspond to his work hours? or are there gaps? ie. if the school lets out at 3pm and he works normally until 4 or 5pm, what is your proposal to deal with that?

                      What is your proposal to deal with the impact to the other children/existing routine if you move? You are prepared to handle all the other aspects caused by it? The only other determining factor is a change of school?

                      It sounds almost like two separate issues. You can move anywhere, as long as it's reasonable, and as long as you are willing to make it so that if necessary, there is no change to your ex's schedule because of your decision to move.

                      If your ex does not agree to change schools, would moving to that area mean you cannot continue the existing schedule?

                      To my mind, that is a key consideration. Otherwise, you have some strong points, your best bet is to get your ex on board. I would put together a proposal for him, lay out all the cards, and see what he says.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                        I am in Alberta and there are absolutely no options for renting anywhere near her school. Not only are there no vacancies, rental costs are prohibitive even if I could find one. My options are living further away from my work (where I am now) or moving to the metro I mentioned above.
                        If the matter goes before the court you are going to have to demonstrate this as factual by providing the current real estate listings for rentals in the immediate neighbourhood and the associated costs. I would recommend to support your personal opinion and to transform it into "fact" that is harder to counter is to have a real estate agent provide a report in support of your statement here. (That it is too expensive.)

                        Basically, you should try to find some independent third party that can verify what you are stating here as somewhat (or actual) fact. That will be more compelling to a justice should the matter require the intervention of the court.

                        Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                        I don't know if you are aware, she will be changing schools either way as she is moving from elementary to middle school.
                        No, I did not know this.

                        Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                        1 The bullies she has had to deal with despite discussions and failed interventions by both my ex and I in the school she is currently in. These three girls will be moving to the middle school in the area that she would be going to if I don't move her to metro.
                        Well, if you and the other parent have intervened with the school regarding the challenges your daughter possibly faces with bullying then I do question why the other parent would not want to agree to the change in schools?

                        Or is it that the other parent has recommended a different school that is closer to their residence and neighbourhood within (or close to) the same catchment area for the school districts? If the other parent has recommended a different school that isn't in the "metro" area why isn't it an appropriate school? (That is *if* they have recommended it. If they have not feel free to disregard this question.)

                        Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                        2 The school she wants to go to is superior academically.
                        I always warn people that they put a justice, who is a public official, in a very difficult situation when they try to present this kind of evidence. Justices are generally not going to order a specific school over another one because one is better than the other - especially if they are part of a publicly funded school system.

                        If an order were to come out of the courts, stating a child should go to school "X" over school "Y" because it is "superior academically" it is a critical statement of a publicly delivered service. Judges often, in my opinion, often ignore this evidence as they level all schools in the public system as being equally good for children. To put it into more perspective, they don't want to be the one that gets reported that determined that a child shouldn't go to school "x" over school "y" because it is better.

                        The only time I have seen any justice make a ruling on this is when it is inter-city disputes. (e.g. Toronto vs. Mississauga)

                        Generally, the jurisdiction for which the matter is being heard is where the justice will order the child go to school. For example, if you are appearing before the Peel (Mississauga) courts and try to convince a justice sitting in that region that the school in Toronto is better, good luck with that... They serve in the city and won't put forward an order stating that the Toronto school is better and force a child to go to a school in Toronto. They basically will be compelled by their fact that the matter is being heard in the Peel court in accordance with the Rules and order the school in that region generally.

                        Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                        3 Her best friend is also moving to the metro school. This coupled with #1 are huge motivators for her to move.
                        Yet, this hasn't compelled the other parent to agree with the move?

                        Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                        4 I am unable to get her violin lessons in our current area and there are superb options for her in metro.
                        Again, the argument can be made that as this is not as regular as the attendance to school then, it shouldn't be a major reason the school changes.

                        30 minutes in a car 5 days a week to school versus 1-2 lessons a week. I am of the opinion it would be better for the child to have a extracurricular that is further away from home as it is less frequent than school.

                        Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                        I realize status quo is a very strong factor and adding to that is her brother (age 12) is already going to the suburb middle school.
                        This is a major and huge factor. Also, as a parent, why wouldn't you move BOTH children to the "superior academically" school that you are trying to move the other child to? Also, what kind of daily routine would it be for a parent to have children at different schools? Or is the brother a "step-brother"?

                        Originally posted by momof4 View Post
                        I know these are not strong reasons, however would her wanting to move at the age of 10 not be a factor?
                        In my opinion, which is just the opinion of a random internet person, is that your argument is incredibly weak at best to moving the school. The best evidence you have possibly is the bullying issues. But, you will need actual evidence and not your personal opinion as to what is happening and confirmation (documents) from the school about the issue. The majority of the rest of your arguments you are presenting are easily defeated if the other parent hires a competent lawyer who has dealt with school moves before.

                        Good Luck!
                        Tayken

                        Comment

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