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  • Summer Vacation plans

    My ex wants to take the eldest of our 4 children on a 2 week vacation to England. He has already mentioned this trip to the 2 eldest, saying they can go if Mommy will allow it, and stating the 2 youngest are too little to take the trip even though they have been on a number of long haul flights. He is an academic and will have at least 4 or 5 weeks off work time. Other than the 2 week trip, he wants to see the children for a total of one additional week during the school summer vacation, although he wants those 7 days split up and not in a single block. He states that this implies 3 weeks of time for him and 5 weeks of summer vacation with me, although I will actually have children with me for 7 weeks of the summer vacation, as the 2 youngest will be staying with me if he takes the 2 eldest to England.

    The final separation agreement has not yet been completed ( we currently have an interim agreement) and the actual divorce can not happen until June of 2010. He has strong ties to England, being British by birth and has a girlfriend living in Germany. All 4 children were born in England, but have Canadian citizenship through me. Currently we are all living in Canada.

    I honestly feel that if he can not take all 4 children to England, then he should really be planning a vacation which can accomodate all 4 children at the same time...has any one any advice to offer on this matter?

  • #2
    I think it is wonderful that he wants to spend that kind of quality time with his children....plus pay for the added expense of such an extravagent vacation.

    For most people, getting a change to fly overseas to England would be a once in a lifetime opportunity! Your children are very lucky!

    I think it is reasonable that he focus on the two eldest for such a major trip...They would probably enjoy some alone time with Dad without him having to focus all of his extra attention towards the younger childrens' needs.

    Maybe you can negotiate some "Mom time" for you as well though.... you deserve a break too.


    I'd approach him and ask him to take all 4 children for a week this summer to allow you some time off as well... in exchange for you keeping the little ones during the two week trip.

    Everything should be negotiable! Good Luck

    Comment


    • #3
      With all due respect, this is the kind of question that must cause judges to throw their hands up in despair. How can anyone on this forum possibly give you good advice about the right thing to do in your situation?

      Only you, your ex and those close to your family situation have any valuable insight as to what you should do. None of us here know your children or the unique family dynamics at play. How are we in a position to make a judgement call on what's best for your kids?

      This is not a time for your ex to be saying to the two eldest that they can go "if Mommy allows it" before you two come to a decision together. That is manipulative. Nor is it fair to your kids to be asking people here, who know nothing about you, what the best thing to do is.

      This is a time for you and your ex to co-parent these children.
      Last edited by dadtotheend; 11-10-2009, 04:55 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dadtotheend View Post
        Nor is it fair to your kids to be asking people here, who know nothing about you, what the best thing to do is.
        Ummm....

        I may have misunderstood you but, is that not what this forum is for?

        A bunch of people offering support to other people, on what the best thing to do MIGHT be....even though the "complete story" is unknown????

        By your standards, none of the posts here are "fair to the kids".

        I don't get your point?

        Comment


        • #5
          The only negative thing to your ex leaving out the two youngest children on this trip is the fact that it will not give you time to yourself.

          I think it is definitely unusual to separate the children like that for vacations, you don't say their ages so there could be a large gap in ages.

          I would agree that it could be very disappointing to expect to have time to yourself during the ex's summer holidays, and then find out you will not have time alone. Divorce and young children increase stress exponentially! Young children take a lot out of you. Perhaps you can arrange a sitter for part of the trip so you can plan and look forward to time apart.

          Depending on the communication between you and your ex, you could try and negotiate at least a week that he takes all the children together.

          Good luck.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by representingself View Post
            Ummm....

            I may have misunderstood you but, is that not what this forum is for?

            A bunch of people offering support to other people, on what the best thing to do MIGHT be....even though the "complete story" is unknown????

            By your standards, none of the posts here are "fair to the kids".

            I don't get your point?
            I think this forum is for support - mainly legal support. A lot of people need guidance about family law procedure and the rules, and what they can do when parents disagree.

            We don't know any of your four children. It's ridiculous, and irresponsible, to expect us to tell you whether the two eldest ought to go to England. That is your, and your ex's, job.

            We can offer support to guide you so that you and your ex can work on the common goal of parenting your children. But in the end you are the parents.

            Sorry, but it continues to amaze me how parents seek advice/delegate responsibility for what really is not a life alerting decision from/to people who are hopelessly ill-equipped to make it.
            Last edited by dadtotheend; 11-10-2009, 12:52 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              It seems dadtotheend is assuming the issue is child-centred i.e. what is best for the kids. But perhaps the issue is really about the impact on YOU - which is perfectly valid. When there is a dispute, it helps to be very clear and communicative about the reasons for disagreeing with what the other parent is requesting. Always keep separate in your mind your needs from those of your children.

              Comment


              • #8
                Dadtotheend

                This site is for "Divorce Advice, Family Law"(read top of page). Surely you can't assume this site is strictly for legal advice.

                Comment


                • #9
                  "Mainly legal support" does not equal "strictly for legal advice".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What the forum is titled is irrelevent. Everyone comes here with different questions and different issues... and for different reasons. But we all come here looking for advice, for a different perspective, to talk to someone who has perhaps been in a similar situation and from whose experience we can learn.

                    Earthmother... sorry for the hijack of your thread.

                    I think your question is valid and makes perfect sense.

                    Is there any way you could negotiate with your ex about a more equal vacation time? Maybe send him some suggestions... and perhaps he would be open to one of them. Be sure to schedule some time in for yourself, and ensure that the kids have equal (or close to equal) time with both families.

                    I think a few "back-and-forth" communications to reach a compromise wouldn't hurt.

                    Good luck!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Personally, I would let the eldest children travel - it is a great experience for them!

                      Depending on the age difference travel can be very different for children of different ages and even harder when only one parent is making the trip - I took both my boys to Australia for 5 weeks (to visit my family) and had some days where we 'broke the boys up' (i.e someone in my family took care of them) to visit/do different activities and had a couple of days where only one was with me (as parent). I also had a couple of days to myself to visit old university friends and they stayed with my parents.

                      I do believe the trip should have been discussed and approved in advance with you, not done manipulatively as indicated in another reply.

                      I also believe there should be at least one week during the summer where all 4 kids are with him - perhaps less option for him to break up the remaining weeks and give you a complete break as well, would be a fair compromise to not taking all 4 on the trip to England. (Hopefully he will invite the youngest two to go on a similar trip in future years!)

                      I went through 7 months straight where either both or at least one boy was home prior to my ex having both at the same time (overnight) and I really appreciated the break - my family are all in Australia, so I have limited overnight options here.

                      She also created a couple of issues where she only invited the eldest to go away for a week during the summer and did not offer an equivalent (or any alone time ) to the youngest.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You should do what is best for the kids, not yourself. When you guys split up, one of the consequences of that is less time for yourself.

                        When I married a man with kids, i knew that every one of our "vacations", untill his kids were grown, would be flying his kids out to spend the time with us. So on our "vacation" time, we go from looking after 2 kids, to looking after all 4 kids. Just the way it is

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It would really help if we knew the kids ages.

                          I think it sounds like a wonderful trip, that he should have discussed with you first. I understand not taking the younger kids, 4 is a LOT to take care of, especially on a trip. However, he should be taking the younger 2 for a different 2 weeks during the summer, regardless of whether he has more vacation. How are they going to feel about being left behind?? They need special time with their dad too.

                          If he does manage to take the younger ones separately maybe you can put the older ones in camp or arrange some overnights at their friends so you can have some me time too. Some people tend to forget about themselves and only worry about the kids. But parents need to feel happy too. If you aren't happy, relaxed and renewed it DOES affect your parenting and the happiness of your kids. Hope that makes sense.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you for all the responses so far - I appreciate everyones perspectives on this matter.

                            Some background: The children are aged 2 1/2, 6 , 10 and 13. All 4 were born in England, which is where I lived for over 12 years. Their father is British and I am a Canadian citizen. We have only been living in Ontario for just over a year now. I have been legally separated and living apart from the childrens father for 5 months. Currently there is an interim agreement - working towards a final legal separation agreement. All 4 children have made a number of long haul flights - England to British Columbia for a Sabbatical period, from BC to New Brunswick and back with me to visit relatives, from BC back to England, and from England to Ontario. I have also taken all 4 on the 19 hour drive to the Maritimes and back twice. I am not saying these journies were all fun and games, but they were certainly much more pleasant than giving birth and my separation talks

                            This is the second time he has wanted to take the 2 eldest children on a foreign trip and the second time he has discussed it with the children before discussing it with me. The previous trip was supposed to be to Germany to introduce the eldest 2 to his female "friend" and her 5 year old child and was scheduled to take place 3 weeks after announcing the separation to the children. He planned to leave them in her care for at least 2 days of the week long trip while he fulfilled work commitments. He said that it was very important to him to take the 2 eldest on this trip with him. In light of the impending separation, I told him I did not think the trip was a good idea, but that I might consider it if he would guarantee that the children would have no contact with either his new girlfriend or her child. He said he could not promise this. On the advice of my lawyer, I said the children could not take the trip, and that I also felt he should not have discussed the trip with the children before having discussed it with me.

                            Around the same time period, I also had a discussion with him about why his plan to move his girlfriend and her child into the new home he was sorting out for himself immediately after the separation was possibly not a good idea. He seemed to believe that the children are extremely adaptable and would be okay with the idea Eventually he agreed that it was perhaps best to wait on that one for awhile, and it turns out she was not able to come to Canada at that point in any case, although I presume this is still in their future plans.

                            The 2 eldest children have both been attending counselling sessions since before the separation due to a variety of underlying issues, including anxiety, anger, and talk of suicide. Their father has never spoken to their therapists, as he believes therapy is all very "Californian" and not very British stiff upper lipped - an opinion which he has also voiced to the children.

                            The 6 year old daughter became extremely agitated and anxious on Monday morning this week because the T-shirt I randomly picked for her to wear that day is apparently supposed to be kept at her fathers house and only worn while she is staying with him because his special friend bought it with her own money.

                            My son was not allowed to bring home a birthday gift which his father bought for him, as it is for dads house only and would only get lost at mom's house. According to my 10 year old ( who helped pick the gifts out) my 6 year old will not be permitted to bring her birthday presents back to Mommy's house either after she opens them this coming weekend.

                            This has happened with even simple things like candy and chocolate that he has given to the children as treats - it is to be consumed at his house only.

                            For the record, I place no limits on what may be taken to their fathers house, although I do specify what needs to be brought back with them and that it is their responsibilty to look after their things properly.

                            Currently I have the children the majority of the time. He only asked for every other weekend in the interim agreement, and after signing, asked to have the children for a 4 hour period on the Tuesday before his weekend access. I had no problem with the kids having the extra weekday time with him, but did refuse his request to cut his weekend time with the kids from 48 to 44 hours. My lawyer said weekday time is in addition to and not a substitute for weekend time. At the moment, I have the children for continuous 10 day periods between his access times. Neither the ex or myself have any family ties to the area. My nearest relatives live in the Maritimes.

                            As far as free time for myself is concerned, I have more of it now that I am separated than I did during 12 years of marriage. He has never had full responsibilty for the children for longer than a 48 hour period either before or after separation.

                            Personally, I would be quite happy to have all 4 kids for the summer holidays, with a trip to visit their Maritime relatives, so free time for myself is not so much the issue as whether or not it is fair to exclude the 2 youngest from his vacation based on the fact that the 2 older are the least demanding in terms of care.

                            I fully realize that no one here is able to decide this matter for me - if I just wanted a simple answer picked for me, I'd consult a Magic 8 Ball

                            Other peoples experience of dealing with vacation situations and opinions on mine are welcome.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just another quick question to add to this thread regarding extraordinary expenses. Would a school trip generally be considered as an extraordinary expense? The cost of the transportation and accomodation is in excess of $600 and additional funds will be required for food & misc expenses. It is an educational school trip.

                              I asked my lawyer about it before emailing my ex and she said it was an extraordinary expense. My ex is supposed to pay 85 % of extraordinary costs. He is claiming he can not afford to contribute his share, and says his lawyer has advised that the expense is completely unreasonable at this time. The trip is not scheduled to take place until next June, so I do feel like he has been given plenty of notice about this and that there is adequate time to come to some sort of financial arrangement to cover his share.

                              And it amazes me that he is unable to afford this school trip for his son, due to his having "the lower of the 2 disposable incomes" but is apparently able to afford 2 weeks in England with the 2 eldest next summer.

                              Is it unreasonable of me to expect him to cough up his share?

                              Comment

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