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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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  #11  
Old 08-14-2013, 03:23 PM
dinkyface dinkyface is offline
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I agree with the previous comments on procedural/rules difficulties. In Family Court, there are no rules or law, nothing is black and white, and 'should' means nothing. I tried to represent myself and was getting taken advantage of on procedural issues. It's hard to argue with the judge to uphold the law on technical procedural issues AND still look like a reasonable person (and my ex's argument is that I am unreasonable). Much better to have a lawyer who is confident on what he can press for safely.
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  #12  
Old 08-14-2013, 03:24 PM
FB_ FB_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serene View Post
FB_ I agree in part with you. But again, this won't be a matter of choice soon. We will be forced to as I understand that lawyers don't work for free
I guess you have to ask yourself is what's your worst case scenario in court self rep vs. settling (what they want not you). Then consider what it might cost to get what you think you should get in court with a lawyer. Unfortunately most of these are unknowns and a big risk imo.
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  #13  
Old 08-14-2013, 03:25 PM
Serene Serene is offline
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Again - if we cannot afford one, and we won't in the very short term, we will be on our own. Better to plan ahead now and read what we can, than to wait for it to happen and be unprepared...

In hindsight, I think I worded my original post poorly, hence the responses. We are really reaching out and looking for help, pointers, assistance. This is inevitable. We will be without representation soon enough.
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  #14  
Old 08-14-2013, 03:29 PM
Serene Serene is offline
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More info - Mom is not even entertaining what the judge recommended at the CC. In fact, she has done the opposite. Even went as far as to deny access many times since the CC and put it in writing. And "just because".

This isn't about money. CC and SS are up to date and paid every month. Never has there been any arrears. This is about reducing a father's access to his children when the judge said dad needs more time with his kids...the only issue is that access is not worded tightly in the SA so mom typically interferes and dad does not have unfettered access. That is really the only issue.

Ya, she is trying to chance joint to sole but that isn't going to happen. Dad has always cooperated and shared info and assumed all costs for the children. On the other hand, she has not. She continues to schedule and interfere with dad's access. It really can't get any worse. So the odds of doing poorly in court really mean reverting to the status quo lol
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  #15  
Old 08-14-2013, 03:49 PM
Mess Mess is offline
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If it is not about money, then money is irrelevent to your case, and you should stop mentioning money, because it is cluttering up your thread, your argument, your thinking, and doubtless your court pleading.

If it is solely about access, then speak solely about access, issues of access, case law about access, your factual records about access, and what you are seeking regarding access.

I'm not being mean, I am helping you.

Regarding whether or not you should self-rep, you first have to decide whether or not you should go to trial at all. This won't be free. You will lose time off work, you will have to dedicate yourself to this full time. It will stress you and possibly to the point of being ill.

You have to accept that you may lose and you will pay your ex's court costs. This issue has to be important enough to risk that. If it is, then you must go ahead and not be concerned about costs. You must dedicate yourself to what you are fighting for. There is no half way.
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  #16  
Old 08-14-2013, 03:54 PM
Serene Serene is offline
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Mess - Brilliant! I needed to hear that. And in looking back at our court papers, that is all we have really discussed thus far. And in fact, we continue to say that the children deserve both parents. Perhaps this will need to be adjusted as time goes on if mom keeps interfering - denying and tagging along to dad's access.

I need more of this. I have done a lot of research on canlii and found cases that apply, are in same province and are recent. One is VERY much the same. In fact, the judge said that the status quo for access should not be maintained if it is not in the child's best interests... and I think this is the issue. What is happening with access is not what is supposed to happen with the access (dad should be getting more and unfettered per the SA) so at the very least she would have to prove why dad shouldn't see his children and why she needs to interfere with it. Thus far, she hasn't been successful. The judge and CAS had strong words with her, which of course, fell on deaf ears...
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  #17  
Old 08-15-2013, 10:13 AM
Serene Serene is offline
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Iceberg, now you have me worried! We are well educated, but of course, not in law. Really, you didn't understand what the other lawyer said? Because it was a bunch of legal jargon?

I did represent someone about 15 years ago. But the laws were different then and judges made decisions at most every court date. They at least told you - YOU do it, or I do it now kinda thing...

I just can't fathom going into debt for this any more than we have. The climates at our employment is going down and I'm worried we will be laid off like the rest of them. We have to keep our nose above water so to speak. And we've already depleted one kid's education fund... this is not at all ideal...

Keep the advice coming!
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  #18  
Old 08-15-2013, 02:24 PM
OrleansLawyer OrleansLawyer is offline
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Quote:
I have done a lot of research on canlii and found cases that apply, are in same province and are recent.
You have not done enough preparation.

There are three aspects to the court system:
1 - Evidence;
2 - The law; and
3 - How 2 applies to 1.

You must prove everything you are relying upon in 1 if the other side does not admit it. That is a long and detailed process. You also must address evidence brought by the other side, and have contingencies in the event certain facts are not proved.

For 2, that is your research on CanLII.

The hardest part is 3. These are your arguments; what you practice in front of the mirror every night for a month, while someone familiar with 1 and 2 interrupts you and asks you questions about parts you spoke on 5 minutes ago and parts you will get to in 20 minutes.

As a rule of thumb, a lawyer spends two days preparing for every day in court. They have practice; you do not. Prepare very far in advance, and as thoroughly as possible.
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  #19  
Old 08-15-2013, 05:10 PM
Serene Serene is offline
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Thank you OrleansLawyer. Here is a little more info:

Evidence is easy. Everything is in writing. Mom was silly enough to email us everything and I mean everything. Every email is toxic and foul. She threatens, she even is kind enough to email us 3 minutes before she refuses to give us access and says "just because I feel like it"... CAS could not believe how much she put in writing. That should cover #1. You will never find one foul or even remotely emotional email from us to her. Never.

For number 2 I think it may be simpler that with some cases. There are no clinical issues. The OCL and an assessment was refuted thus far and we are scheduled for trial already. That is our next court appearance.

We have also always maintained that the best interests of the children are to have unfettered, equal and ample access to both parents. Both parents should continue to have joint custody. We even have suggested a parrellel parenting regime since mom just refuses to cooperate on most things (and that really means everything). She on the other hand is trying to say that dad is not a good influence on the kids although EVERY avenue that she has tried has not proven to work in her favour. There have been no consequences yet, but no one has believed her and while we have to jump through hoops to overcome stuff, we have been able to continue to hold our head up high.

One particular case is very similar:
Izyuk v. Bilousov, 2011 ONSC 6451 (CanLII)



Please keep the advice coming! I really appreciate it!
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  #20  
Old 08-15-2013, 10:21 PM
WorkingDAD WorkingDAD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serene View Post
Thank you OrleansLawyer. Here is a little more info:

Evidence is easy. Everything is in writing. Mom was silly enough to email us everything and I mean everything. Every email is toxic and foul. She threatens, she even is kind enough to email us 3 minutes before she refuses to give us access and says "just because I feel like it"... CAS could not believe how much she put in writing. That should cover #1. You will never find one foul or even remotely emotional email from us to her. Never.

For number 2 I think it may be simpler that with some cases. There are no clinical issues. The OCL and an assessment was refuted thus far and we are scheduled for trial already. That is our next court appearance.

We have also always maintained that the best interests of the children are to have unfettered, equal and ample access to both parents. Both parents should continue to have joint custody. We even have suggested a parrellel parenting regime since mom just refuses to cooperate on most things (and that really means everything). She on the other hand is trying to say that dad is not a good influence on the kids although EVERY avenue that she has tried has not proven to work in her favour. There have been no consequences yet, but no one has believed her and while we have to jump through hoops to overcome stuff, we have been able to continue to hold our head up high.

One particular case is very similar:
Izyuk v. Bilousov, 2011 ONSC 6451 (CanLII)



Please keep the advice coming! I really appreciate it!
In what part it is very similar? I was under impression that in that case Dad did all research and preparation for the trial himself (including posting and asking questions on forum).

BTW it better to refer the case by link like this 2011 ONSC 6451 (CanLII)

WD
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