Dad will help other Dads

[bearall]

Aden
No offense intended.
You aren't doing or feeling much different than any other disenfranchised parent. Whatever you decide is fine and up to you and there is probably no right way or wrong way of coping. You are a hero in my books and I have told you so.I took the stance you did and more, a lot more!! It came back to haunt me in a way I can hardly describe and it is taking a lot more effort to correct now. I am taking the high road, I don't know any other path, but the system in place does not care the way you think it should. You have responsibilities to your children that should be placed above your own need to feel you're sheltering your ex-wife and children from the fall out of Divorce over the short term. The Long term results are even more damaging.You have an obligation to see to it that your kids rights are protected .

Children's Bill of Rights
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All children shall enjoy the following inalienable rights:
The right to be treated as important human beings, with unique feelings, ideas and desires and not as a source of argument between parents.
The right to a sense of security and belonging derived from a loving and nurturing environment which shelters them from harm.
The right to a continuing relationship with both parents and the freedom to receive love from and express love for both.
The right to "listening parents."
The right to express love and affection for each parent without having to stifle that love because of fear of disapproval by the other parent.
The right to grow and flourish in an atmosphere free of exploitation, abuse and neglect.
The right to know that their parents' decision to divorce is not their responsibility and that they will still be able to live with each parent.
The right to continuing care and guidance from both parents where they can be educated in mind, nourished in spirit, and developed in body, in an environment of unconditional love.
The right to honest answers to questions about the changing family relationships.
The right to know and appreciate what is good in each parent without one parent degrading the other.
The right to have a relaxed, secure relationship with both parents without being placed in a position to manipulate one parent against the other.
The right to have one parent not undermine time with the other parent by suggesting tempting alternatives or by threatening to withhold activities with the other parent as a punishment for the children's wrongdoing.
The right to be able to experience regular and consistent parental contact and the right to know the reason for not having regular contact.
The right to be a kid and to be insulated from the conflict and problems of parents.
The right to be taught, according to their developmental levels, to understand values, to assume responsibility for their actions, and to cope with the just consequences of their choices.
The right to be able to participate in their own destiny.

Ratify these rights for your children and you will give them better protection than any law could ever provide.

[Aden]

makes sense..

I am just at odds.. with the whole --she`s my enemy thing..is all....
I appreciate your words..and the childrens rights ....
I am a lonely Dad....who cares immensly for his children..
-

[sasha1]

Bearall..

Where did you pull that text from? As much as I agree wholeheartedly with the concept, I don't see it being put into practice.. at least, not here.. from what my lawyer tells me.

[bearall]

Sasha
I "googled" it and a couple thousand sites came up. I care about this issue so I looked for it because I wanted to show Aden what the children are entitled to(their rights). Being a parent and the ongoing responsibilities to little children transcends what we have been recently discussing. If you use a certain style to deal with conflict
you are left with the consequences of your actions or lack of. Event + your response= "Outcome"

You can avoid the issues(you lose,I lose)
You can accomodate(you win, I lose)
You can be competitive(I win, you lose)[this is used by a party or both when an ongoing future relationship with the people in dispute no longer matters]
You can collaborate (you win,I win)

Of course it is a very difficult and upsetting situation for all of us, but to choose or not choose "How you want the issues resolved" belongs to each one of us and respect for those eventual decisions and the mechanics involved in resolution, is our own cross to bear now and in the future as it unfolds at a snails pace. But what the heck do I know!

[bearall]

I meant to add this "We see things not as they are but as WE are" !

[brokendad]

my two cents for your book

I have been in court for 3 years. I have joint access and joint custody. Still fighting for another year over money. My ex is the typical ex with the axe to grind. And the system is helping her all along the way.

When I am done, I am working on a book to help fathers. I am also working towards getting the Divorce Laws reformed. It is just pure bullsh*t.

The system is wrong.

I will try to help any father I can. Sorry mom, you have enough help already. BTW, I am not against mom's - just the system and people (mom's) who use it to be vindictive.

Just thought I would add my two cents for your book. In those cases of divorce where children are involved there should be an automatic court appointed registered social worker who specialises in childrens issues and a mediator to facillitate an agreement based on the best interest of the children.For instance , although mom may not want dad to have anything but limited contact with the children if there is not a sound reason for it the RSW and and mediator could prevail to act in what best serves the children (obviously seeing their father).In short they would have veto power over two squabbling adults who most likely have less sense then their children anyway. In otherwords cut to the chase, cut out the high price lawyers, and deliver an agreement that is fair by the norms of current society and let everyone get on with there lives. The money saved could be better spent on the childrens education.A few lawyers may have to wait till next year for a new beemer . And just possibly the children will not have to witness their parents behaving like village idiots---even if it is only one of the parents.

[ont2005]

I am a women and let me tell you I am sad to hear how people
use the system. I think people should be decent to each other.
I actually makes me sick to my stomach to read about these men
who are racked over the coils over and over and yet some women
don't get anything. I can only support you and tell you that not all
women are like this ... and I think in due time things will work out
for you and the kids. Maybe difficult right now, but stand strong.
To me being a good parent is the best thing ever, this will prove
to you in later years. When children grow up they look back and
see things for what they were.... and beleive me they will
If that is all you have for now maybe you can live on that ...
good luck and stay strong

[w/ohope]

As far as i'm concerned, in my opinion, the "system" is unfair to children. As horrible as it sounds i think that there should be hidden cameras in the houses of both parties involved in a custody battle to see the interactions with a child and it's parent. To see which party is the most suitable or why a child does or does not want to be somewhere. Without the parents knowing so that they can't "play it up" for the camera.

I don't care about either parent, who cares? It's the children that matter the parents can adjust, they're old enough to figure it out and be mature. It's the children that need to be litened to, interview the children with child psycologists, no matter what the age of the child. See where it fits and what it thinks of everything going on. They are smarter than people give them credit for. That's what i think.

The system is terribly flawed in this respect. What's best for every case on a case by case basis, not generalities. Every family is different and every situation is different. Do what's HONESTLY best for the children not what benifits you best. The children. Truley.

[logicalvelocity]

One thing is certain is that children do grow up and they do remember a good portion of their child hood. They will remember when one parent denied an opportunity for them to spend quality time with the other parent.

What goes around does come around.

[Julie]

One thing is certain is that children do grow up and they do remember a good portion of their child hood. They will remember when one parent denied an opportunity for them to spend quality time with the other parent.

What goes around does come around.

So true.
You think they might forget... wrong
I can still remember things from when I was aged 5 and up.

[w/ohope]

One thing is certain is that children do grow up and they do remember a good portion of their child hood. They will remember when one parent denied an opportunity for them to spend quality time with the other parent.

What goes around does come around.

It does indeed. And children will remember the trauma and the lonliness of being abandoned, or being with someone who doesn't love them. I remember my childhood. I know what they feel, i remember. Parents need to step up and HONESTLY do what's right for their children. Not for themselves.

[Decent Dad]

Folks, sorry for not following this thread more closely. I have been posting in so many other threads and answering e-mails.

I know there are decent people out there. And that there are great women out there - I am currently married to one!

But the laws are wrong, and these biased courts are just unreal.

[2hopefull]

well these comments are scary, sounds like all my ex's friends (who all have ex's some more than one) and complain, however have hockey tickets, girlfriends, free time, cars and how to get out of paying - it's not cheap to feed and clothe children (they grow), plus they want what their friends have. This is disturbing in a lot of ways, because I left to save myself and give my daughter some type of healthy life.

Just remember if you have a daughter, she will most likely be one of the women "complaining" on this site.

[Divorcemanagement]

A Perfect Family Law System

Interesting thread.

As someone who works in the family law system, there is truth to the assertions that fathers make about bias running rampant through the system, at the same time there is also truth to the assertions that mothers make about being victimized by divorce laws.

The Divorce Act is probably in need of a makeover, but is shared parenting going to become the law of the land? Will child support legislation change to something other than the guidelines? Will pensions no longer be divisable? No, no and no.

The existing system we have sets court (an inherently adversarial process) as the final arbiter for disputes between parents. It will always be adversarial because that's the nature of law - amid adversity, the truth is bound to emerge.

What separates family law from criminal law, for example, is that while there is a burden of proof in both systems, the family law system allows for either side to make wild allegations about each other without requiring evidence to back it up. Now let me back up for a second.

Are men and women imperfect? Yes.
Did men and women create our existing laws? Yes.
Do men and women preside over family law matters in their capacity as a judge? Yes.
Are men and women imperfect? Yes.
Are you going to get perfect justice every time? No
Why?
Because men and women are imperfect.

Law is a rule book. An imperfect rule book, but a rule book nonetheless. Family law, unlike other forms of law, is often a barometer of our current place in time as a society. 40 years ago, it took an act of Parilament to grant a divorce.. now it doesn't. My mother who divorced in 1962 lost everything she had, inheritences, her home - everything - because she intiated a divorce in a period of our history where divorce simply wasn't done.

Flash forward to 1986 - a new law governs divorce. It introduces the concept of "no fault" to the process - it makes divorce easier to obtain. The trade off is that while it is easier to obtain (on paper) increased rights and responsibilites for both men and women mean that there is much more to divide - from the kids the the dining room set. What happened as a result was an initial spike in the divorce rate after the law changed in 1986, and a levelling off of divorce rates over the last ten or so years - hovering around 40% nationally.

Flash forward to 2006 - now we have twenty years of the current law. We have a generation of children from the 1986 law obtaining divorces of their own. We have increased numbers of second marriages failing because of ongoing litigation from the first marriage. In my area of work, it is very common to have men and women on their second failed marriage entering the divorce process.

No, the system isn't perfect and it never will be perfect. Emphasis needs to be placed on doing to high conflict divorce what we, as a culture, did to cigarette smoking or drunk driving - make it socially unacceptable behavior to engage in high conflict divorce. Will that happen? Probably not. Why? Because divorce is a downer that married people don't want to talk about. It's a political hot potato (everyone who has a history in the system knows about the general dysfunction of the Joint Senate Parliamentary Committee on Custody and Access hearings back in 1998.)

A perfect law will never exist. Mandatory shared parenting might be seen as a means to eliminate all of the fighting, but the reality is that in order to eliminate the conflict, you have to change people's behaviors. A shared parenting law will not change behaviors because there will always be parents out there who believe they are right and their former spouse is wrong.

So what is the alternative?

A vigorous national debate about divorce and it's impact on children. Period - end of story. Open dialogue about how the lack of programs and services for families in the process acts to increase conflict. A national discussion about the cost of accessing justice and whether there is an alternative method of dealing with dispute that can be implemented - say, for example, mandatory mediation/arbitration.

It's not a perfect world - I wish that it was. For every father's rights guy who says the system is biased, I want to introduce them to some of my female clients who have been out of the work force for 15 years and are now unemployable and who are economically dependent on their former husbands. For every mother who thinks it is her divine right to be in charge of the kids, I want to introduce them to the fathers who are taking every conceivable parent education, anger management and divorce education program known to man and who still face a wall when they try to get more time with the kids.

I think education is key in changing attitudes. Not just for those who make the decisions about family law, but for the public in general. We don't talk about divorce as a culture because as a culture, we are in love with the idea of marriage. Proof of this can be seen in last year's national debate about same sex marriage.

Opponents of same sex marriage were vociferously pointing out that SSM would destroy traditional marriage. Hypocrisy! How can SSM destroy traditional marriage when nearly half of the straight people out there are doing a pretty damned good job of it all on their own? What made me really mad was that you would think that such an obvious thing as this would have been picked up by the news media - but no. Why? Because it would have driven news coverage from same sex marriage to straight people marriage and maybe we aren't quite ready to talk about the fact that so many people in Canada see divorce as a massive, unsolvable challenge.

Divorce is hard work. I have worked in the system long enough to know that changing laws does not change attitudes - time does. Social acceptance of an alternative method of looking at divorce and it's impact can occur when there are feasible alternatives being made available. The last place anyone should be is in a court room - so why not talk about alternatives to court?

The system can change, but people have to change themselves to make whatever system we have - work.

[hubby]

Agreed Sean. This is why some people can make things work amongst themselves after a divorce/seperation while others cannot ... its a choice, and it begins with the individual.

Hubby