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  • Spouses Income

    Looking at spousal support for an upcoming trial and I am wondering the following:

    If my spouse earns 30k, I earn 80k and were together for 3 years. During that stint her income rose to from 30k to 70k annually but she is declaring 30k as her income because it is commission based can I ask for records? Does it impact the spousal support if I can illustrate that through marriage she has benefited dramatically from us being together?

    If she is working on commission and we have since separated, the commission on the income is applied at year end, am I entitled to that?

  • #2
    All income is considered. If you file a normal tax return (ie that truly represents your income), that is what should be used.

    Full disclosure is required, which usually includes the previous 3 year income tax returns and NOAs.

    If you are saying she makes 70 and you 80 and you only had a 3 year marriage, there should be no SS obviously. Even if she makes 30 and you make 80 there should be no SS for such a short marriage - like you said she benefited financially by the marriage and you lost, but SSAG may award her some (unfair as it is).

    What kind of a person expects SS from a 3 year marriage anyway. Good riddance!

    Comment


    • #3
      uring that stint her income rose to from 30k to 70k annually but she is declaring 30k as her income because it is commission based can I ask for records?
      You should be asking for disclosure. If her earnings are greater than what she is claiming for taxes then you will want to prove the higher amount.

      a 3 year marriage
      For such a short relationship, can you not negotiate a small lump sum to be done with it? Has she been able to prove need or material disadvantage from the relationship?

      Comment


      • #4
        Not sure

        For such a short relationship, can you not negotiate a small lump sum to be done with it? Has she been able to prove need or material disadvantage from the relationship?
        Not sure what you mean by this, but the actual marriage lasted about 2.5 years. I was under the impression that short marriages weren't subject to SS but my Lawyer is telling me otherwise. I'd like to settle but she wants $$$$ as she feels she is obligated to have it not to mention she wants me to pay for things like her lawyer, future home, car etc.

        When I met her she was earning 24k+commission, then I persuaded her to get another job because she wanted to live beyond her means and I couldn't sustain us both. So I helped her find one for 35k, she has subsequently moved up to another job with my assistance at base of 42.5k + bonus + commission.

        She is claiming 35k as her earnings which I can easily illustrate as false.

        Also on a side note, does anyone know what happens if she falsifies the documentation to the CRA etc and in her NOA if she has not included income?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by sayol View Post
          she wants me to pay for things like her lawyer, future home, car etc.
          It is nice to want things.

          She will entitled to equalization and receive her half of the matrimonial debts/assets. This includes her 1/2 in the equity of the matrimonial home etc.

          She isn't entitled to much in SS. And if she does get some SS, it will be for a very short duration (or you can just pay her a lump sum). Normally, the duration SS is paid is 0.5 years of SS for each year of marriage. For longer marriages, more than 10+ where the spouse was a stay at home parent, it is more likely to go to 1-1 SS per year of marriage. For very short marriages, like yours, her entitlement to SS would be an uphill battle for her. Her career was not held back for the benefit of the family and she has a job that affords her a reasonable income.

          If I wanted to just be done with her, I'd offer her like $2k to be on her way...it would likely be cheaper then legal fees to fight SS.

          MySupportCalculator.ca

          PartiesSelfSpouseAge27 years24 yearsAnnual Gross Employment Income $85,000$45,000Province ONONDate of Marriage or Pre-marital CohabitationJanuary 1, 2009Date of SeparationJune 30, 2011Length of Marriage (including period of pre-marital cohabitation) 2 years
          Spousal Support - SSAG
          If entitlement to spousal support is established, Self pays Spouse spousal support in an amount to be determined between $100 and $133 per month (with a midpoint of $117 per month) for a period to be determined between 1 to 2 years from the date of separation, according to the Spousal Support Advisory Guidelines ("SSAG") - "Without Child Support" Formula.
          Monthly payments of spousal support are taxable to the recipient and tax deductible to the payor, if made pursuant to a written separation agreement or court order.

          Comment


          • #6
            I was thinking along the same lines, just happens I know what she has been making in terms of commission and her ballpark salary is around 70k for the year. So she has already decided to take me to court, i'm wondering how the best way to go about defending this is.

            Comment


            • #7
              She is crazy and greedy if what you say is true - love to hear her side.

              Does she have a lawyer?

              Comment


              • #8
                She does have a lawyer, and her lawyer has been putting off providing information and such from the beginning. I have inquired for the last several months about NoA and such and nothing. They refuse to provide accurate information and do things in a timely fashion. Then again the word timely doesn't reflect well in the legal sense.

                If she has foreign assets they are also included in the NoA? Also what happens if someone passes away, there was a will and inheritance, does it need to stipulate in the will anything special?

                Comment


                • #9
                  The best defence is to be honest. Provide full disclosure of your income and provide reasonable offers to settle that would provide her a touch of SS and 1/2 of the debts and assets of the relationship.

                  Request full disclosure in return and go from there. Do not accept any offers if you haven't received full disclosure unless you feel it is completely reasonable and you can deal with it.

                  Should you end up in front of the judge, ensure you have offers that you can show you made. Only certain offers made throughout the court process will be allowed to be taken into consideration (someone here can help me on this point).

                  But be forthcoming with the assets/debts/income. Obtain two appraisals of the matrimonial home from certified real estate appraisers (not just realtors). Take the mid-point of the two amounts and make offers to buy her out at such amount.

                  She likely has her cackling hen-house friends saying she will get SS for 10 years and you should have to buy her a car etc. No, it doesn't work that way. If there are 2 cars, you each get one together with any loan associated with that car. You determine the growth in equity of pensions/assets made during the marriage and you split that growth 50/50. You each take your own credit card debt, unless one can prove that debt was incurred for the benefit of the family. Or, if it isn't much (less than $5k), just split it up and eat it because legal fees will get higher than that really fast.

                  Be reasonable, but set your boundaries. You don't have to buy her a new house/car etc. Once equalization is completed, she can use the money to buy whatever she wants with those funds.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sayol View Post
                    If she has foreign assets they are also included in the NoA? Also what happens if someone passes away, there was a will and inheritance, does it need to stipulate in the will anything special?
                    Inheritance is generally not considered matrimonial property. Most good Wills will have wording providing that the inheritance doesn't form part of the matrimonial property. However, if a spouse receives $50k as inheritance, and then deposits in the joint bank account, that money has become co-mingled with the matrimonial assets and those, subject to equalization (if one were to push it....I don't think it would be entirely scrupulous to do that though).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If you don't have confidence in your ex's integrity in reporting income you could simply request, for the trial, that she submit all payroll receipts and/or employer issue pay summary including commission.

                      I don't believe she would receive any SS unless she is nearing age 65 and has no assets or income. If she thinks otherwise then she is deluded. You guys were still in the honeymoon stage.

                      I'd take a no-deal, no-money, nada stance on this one.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                        ...If there are 2 cars, you each get one together with any loan associated with that car. ... You each take your own credit card debt, unless one can prove that debt was incurred for the benefit of the family. ...
                        I disagree. The most fair and unbiased way is that you blue book value each car and call that an asset to be split. You add car loans to the debt side and split that. Who keeps what is not relevant - what matters is that you both walk away with same matrimonial net worth.

                        Simple example (always good to take things to extreme to see if it is fair). You own a 2012 car worth 45K, with a loan of 10K. You own a 2002 car worth 5K. It is clear that walking away with the 2012 and the 10K loan is not fair to the one stuck with the 2002 5K car with no loan.

                        Credit cards are the same - does not matter who's name is on it. The debt is split evenly. All debt and assets (acquired during marriage) are split evenly, there is no fair reason to treat credit cards as personal debt and owned exclusively by the person who's name is on it or who used it.
                        Last edited by billm; 09-18-2012, 03:18 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Nothing happens with CRA - they are very, very slow to do anything. They won't look at complaints from ex's. She could very easily play dumb and simply re-file her tax return(s).

                          This is why I think using tax returns is not a good thing. Some people have little choice but if you can get away from using them then you will get a much better picture of net taxable income.

                          How someone fills out their taxes (lies) shouldn't be your problem.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by billm View Post
                            I disagree. The most fair and unbiased way is that you blue book value each car and call that an asset to be split. You add car loans to the debt side and split that. Who keeps what is not relevant - what matters is that you both walk away with same matrimonial net worth.

                            Simple example (always good to take things to extreme to see if it is fair). You own a 2012 car worth 45K, with a loan of 10K. You own a 2002 car worth 5K. It is clear that walking away with the 2012 and the 10K loan is not fair to the one stuck with the 2002 5K car with no loan.

                            Credit cards are the same - does not matter who's name is on it. The debt is split evenly. All debt and assets (acquired during marriage) are split evenly, there is no fair reason to treat credit cards as personal debt and owned exclusively by the person who's name is on it or who used it.
                            Man, I am having a great day today...

                            I didn't put in that the fair market value of the car taken would be added to that spouses side when it came to equalization....

                            As for credit cards, in general I would agree that they they just be split. But this marriage was less than 3 years, so very short. If the credit card debt is equal, I'd say pay your own. If one spouse has a very high credit card debt, I'm not sure I would agree to pay for 1/2 if I or the household didn't benefit from the amounts spent.....that said....it also would depend on what it would cost me in legal fees to fight a proportional split ....

                            Man, I need to take a break though...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              a break???? you're just in basic training. LOL

                              Comment

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