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  • Getting the Order Issued

    I'm having a very difficult time getting the opposing lawyer to get our Reasons for Judgment turned into a Court Order.

    Reasons for Judgment were issued on July 31, 2014.

    After 6-7 weeks of waiting for his lawyer to draft the order, I took matters into my own hands and drafted the order myself and provided opposing counsel with a copy.

    After the 10 days had lapsed I approached the clerks at the courthouse with the order I drafted and requested that it be issued. They refused to accept the documents as opposing counsel is supposed to draft the order. I'm self-repped, and the successful party in the matter.

    October 31, 2014 a costs decision was made by the judge. The costs decision is incongruent with the order - I was ordered to pay costs, despite being the successful party on both custody and finances. My outcome was significantly more $ than in his final offer to settle. He held out on custody until the first offer to settle, which offered me sole custody. In his updated documents prior to the Motion hearing, he gave up custody.

    Since receiving the costs decision, I've emailed opposing counsel three times requesting that the order be issued. I've had no response or acknowledgement that my request was received.

    How do I get this order issued? The arrears are racking up significantly, and part of the money I received was for medical expenses dating back to 2012 and CS arrears from 2012/2013. It's 2015 in a few weeks......

  • #2
    Can you file a motion? I have no idea what you could do in this case, short of lawyering up and having a letter sent to them, but am interested to know.

    Is it possible he has either not paid his lawyer or has dismissed the lawyer?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
      Can you file a motion? I have no idea what you could do in this case, short of lawyering up and having a letter sent to them, but am interested to know.

      Is it possible he has either not paid his lawyer or has dismissed the lawyer?
      Filing a Motion is what came out of my research, etc. But, I can't help but think if that is the only solution, this is one helluva cyclical process!

      He's had this lawyer for quite a few years now. The lawyer has never responded on time or appropriately. It could be that he hasn't paid his lawyer, but, again, how is that my problem? His client has been awarded costs from me (again, I don't get that, but in the interest of let's get this done, I'm ready to pay off these costs in due time.) He can't get costs if the order doesn't get issued. The order also changes custody/access and all the passport/travel/medical responsibilities that go with sole custody, and that needs to happen years ago really.

      The ex lives in the US and hasn't been in Canada since August 2013. He was entirely represented in court by this jackass, with him only phoning in.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hmmm, it does seem bizarre that he was given costs on a motion you won. Please keep us updated on how this goes. Wish I had some useful advice to offer!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
          Hmmm, it does seem bizarre that he was given costs on a motion you won. Please keep us updated on how this goes. Wish I had some useful advice to offer!
          It is bizarre really. Reading through the costs judgment, the judge doesn't really seem to have understood the case as well as the conference judge did. I see some connections that make a little sense to me, but, at best it shouldn't have had the impact it did.

          The issues were:

          Custody. He held out until he knew he had no choice. But, that "hold out" went through two case conferences and two settlement conferences, and nearly 10 months from filing of the motion. His conference documents were in the tens of pages as to why he should retain joint custody despite not being in the country or exercising access in two years.

          Orthodontics. All documents until the updated documents filed for the Motion hearing denied his responsibility to pay. At motion he offered to pay his share. In the offer to settle received days before, he offered to pay his share - but direct to the orthodontist and not to me (who has paid the bill).

          Arrears - I wasn't awarded arrears for activities, but was awarded arrears for medical, dental, child support arrears. I received about 60% of the overall arrears I requested.

          Child Support - He agreed to guideline, but didn't disclose his NOA as ordered to.

          Activities - I was awarded $116/m towards a specific activity, with specific dates to provide receipts to him. He vehemently opposed this.

          I personally think, all in all, the $116/m tops the case in my favour, but the judge awarded him $3000 towards the his costs submission for $7800. Don't get it.

          I'm frustrated and I'd like to take care of a few bills with the arrears that I'm owed. 6 months seems like a long time to wait for a order to be drafted and issued. And, I still don't have any ability to travel - freely. I'm sure the good ole border guys will read the "Reasons for Judgment" and understand the situation, but, seriously??

          Comment


          • #6
            My ex's lawyer has never signed an order. My lawyer always has to go directly through the judge. We just had an order signed by judge that was drawn up and presented in May.

            Just another stalling tactic. I'm quite used to it now.

            I'd talk to the clerks about arranging a meeting with opposing counsel and yourself in judge's chambers.

            Oh and I almost forgot to mention, because of the delay in the order being signed my lawyer had to go to court for a fiat. This was after receiving the signed order directly from the judge. Ridiculous really.
            Last edited by arabian; 12-01-2014, 09:19 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Is it possible the clerks are wrong?
              Why not draft and hire a lawyer to submit it?

              Comment


              • #8
                Winning party traditionally drafts the order as far as I know but that doesn't mean the other side is going to sign it (as is always the case for me).

                Because we go through this year after year I can tell you my lawyer simply drafts the order and sends it to opposing counsel who ignores it. My lawyer then sends the draft order to the judge with a short covering letter explaining opposing counsel has not signed the order.

                The judge can either sign off on the order (you don't need the opposing counsel's signature if the judge signs it). However, always keep in mind the 30 days the other side has to appeal the Order.

                In my situation the judge ordered that transcripts be presented (it was a he said/she said sort of thing between the lawyers) and judge warned that the losing party would pay "substantial costs" for wasting court time. Of course my lawyer was correct and the other side wasn't reprimanded whatsoever. The order sat on the judges desk for another 5 months and finally it was signed a few weeks ago. So yet again there is no consequence for my ex and his lawyer wasting court time and money. It's no wonder I get taken to court 4 x every year as there is little consequence for the losing party.

                We unfortunately have a crapola judge for case management (this is one of the few things my ex and I agree upon). All the other judges we had before this idiot were excellent - decisive.

                Hope your experiences is better than my continuing gong-show.

                Oh yeah it's December. Ex must be getting ready to serve me with a motion soon. Whoopeee!!!!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Links17 View Post
                  Is it possible the clerks are wrong?
                  Why not draft and hire a lawyer to submit it?
                  It's entirely possible the clerks are wrong.

                  They've told me that as the "Officer of the Court" opposing counsel is obliged to draft the order despite the success of their client.

                  The Rules state as much, but they also state that the successful party can draft the order. The clerks concurred on that note, and then stated that the time lapse hadn't been long enough to warrant my taking initiative in that respect.

                  It was a cyclical conversation with the clerks that was all summed up to the lawyer has to do it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I believe the clerks are stretching it for their convenience. They are partially correct about the 'officer of the court' thing, however, you have a right as a self-represented individual in having your order signed and entered into court forthwith do you not? I'd speak to duty counsel and get the name of the individual who is responsible for scheduling. Send some more letters, always sending a courtesy copy to opposing counsel. If all else fails simply send a letter along with the draft Order to the judge.

                    In the meanwhile I'd be recording names of the people you are talking to. I find that when people have to give their name, position, employee number as well as the name of their immediate supervisor, they tend to listen more carefully to my concerns.

                    Your matter was heard last summer and should be entered into court by now.

                    The opposing counsel has not written a letter objecting to form and content of the Order. If he has you should have been advised of this.
                    Last edited by arabian; 12-01-2014, 11:10 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The clerks have made giving me the run-around a game I think. They've been difficult at every step. Declining document submission from me on numerous occasions. Once because I didn't include my entire tax return...then I tried to submit it, they didn't believe it was a tax return. I had to get the supervisor involved in order for them to take the paperwork.

                      Ironically, the lawyer submits just about every brief, affidavit, financial statement incomplete. I'm still waiting on the NOA he was ordered to produce for our motion of July 18.

                      I have no doubt that the clerks aren't being as helpful as they could be. I'm wishing and hoping that my only option isn't filing another motion.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by arabian View Post
                        I believe the clerks are stretching it for their convenience. They are partially correct about the 'officer of the court' thing, however, you have a right as a self-represented individual in having your order signed and entered into court forthwith do you not? I'd speak to duty counsel and get the name of the individual who is responsible for scheduling. Send some more letters, always sending a courtesy copy to opposing counsel. If all else fails simply send a letter along with the draft Order to the judge.

                        In the meanwhile I'd be recording names of the people you are talking to. I find that when people have to give their name, position, employee number as well as the name of their immediate supervisor, they tend to listen more carefully to my concerns.

                        Your matter was heard last summer and should be entered into court by now.

                        The opposing counsel has not written a letter objecting to form and content of the Order. If he has you should have been advised of this.
                        I'm so frustrated. It's this type of behavior from the opposing party that has necessitated the motion in the first place.

                        I feel like I'm on a merciless merry-go-round.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I I share in your frustration. It just goes to show you that being represented by counsel or self-represented - it makes little difference should the opposing party want to be difficult. This is a situation where I believe lawyers should most definitely be personally held accountable.

                          Scandalous waste of money.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            very good link for making orders

                            http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...Sti7Dl-ZATHjRg

                            If the FRO is involved they'll sometimes go with the Judgement or Endorsement if it's clear enough. They may call the EX and twist his arm to consent to changes.

                            A) If for some reason the Endorsement wasn't clear...a quickie 14B procedural motion my be helpful to clarify perhaps who makes the Order.

                            just to add.....if your draft order was done incorrectly (most are ..and so it's critical you do the link above exactly) a lawyer will laugh at it and ignore it.

                            Why? because he/she knows the clerks will reject it.

                            You give the EX's lawyer a draft order he knows won't be rejected ...then your in business.

                            Under Rule 25? I think you send the draft to Lawyer and give notice that within 10 days if unaccepted, it'll be submitted without consent.

                            Still problems do A) above 14B
                            Last edited by MrToronto; 12-02-2014, 12:50 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MrToronto View Post
                              very good link for making orders

                              http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...Sti7Dl-ZATHjRg

                              If the FRO is involved they'll sometimes go with the Judgement or Endorsement if it's clear enough. They may call the EX and twist his arm to consent to changes.

                              If for some reason the Endorsement wasn't clear...a quickie 14B procedural motion my be helpful to clarify perhaps who makes the Order.

                              just to add.....if your draft order was done incorrectly (most are ..and so it's critical you do the link above exactly) a lawyer will laugh at it and ignore it.

                              Why? because he/she knows the clerks will reject it.

                              You give the EX's lawyer a draft order he knows won't be rejected ...then your in business.

                              Under Rule 25? I think you send the draft to Lawyer and give notice that within 10 days if unaccepted, it'll be submitted without consent.

                              Thanks for the link...I'll investigate further.

                              The Reasons for Judgment were very clear. The order was written right under all the reasons for judgment. All that was required was simple copy typing onto the correct form, which I did. I had it checked, double checked and triple checked. It's exactly like the judge wrote it.

                              The clerk said it was written wrong, but didn't look at it for more than 3 seconds. It is written verbatim from the Reasons for Judgment, Order Section, and it follows the exact same format that I have an order already written in, which was completed by a lawyer.

                              I sent the Reasons for Judgment to FRO, but they refuse to enforce it because it isn't an order yet. Frustrating since the ex claims that the CS arrears have been paid to FRO for the last 16 months and FRO has never informed me of it. This is the reason the judge considered me unsuccessful in obtaining some of the CS arrears - because he paid the CS all along. However, without an updated court order FRO wouldn't release the funds, so unbeknownst to me, the CS arrears were/are less than I claimed. Still never had any proof of the above - but the new court order covers for that.

                              I'm going to have to resort to consulting a lawyer I think. I'm sick of the run-around. I can't find a solution to non-cooperation. You'd think the bastard would want his costs award enforced if nothing else...

                              Comment

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