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  • What is self-sufficient

    What is the definition of "self-sufficient" and how do you prove that someone is self-sufficient (which would cause spousal support to end).

    How long does a person have to become self-sufficient.


    The Wife agrees that she has an obligation and will take all reasonable steps to become self-sufficient at the earliest possible time taking into consideration her childcare responsibilities.

  • #2
    Originally posted by YOW View Post
    What is the definition of "self-sufficient" and how do you prove that someone is self-sufficient (which would cause spousal support to end).
    It is a subjective statement. It really doesn't mean much.

    The order/agreement should have defined it better. For example: An income within 10% range (+ or -) of the median income for Canadians as defined by Statistics Canada. It also should have specific dates when the evaluation should take place by.

    Originally posted by YOW View Post
    How long does a person have to become self-sufficient.
    Based on what you provided in your quote... As much time as they like really. Again, it is poorly worded. Punch the lawyer in the nose who wrote that.

    The Wife agrees that she has an obligation and will take all reasonable steps to become self-sufficient at the earliest possible time taking into consideration her childcare responsibilities.
    All subjective drivel that should never see an order or agreement. Punch the lawyer.

    Good Luck!
    Tayken

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    • #3
      Grrrrr I remember telling my lawyer that this was too vague and it needed some definition.

      If someone has a really good lawyer they would recommend, please feel free to PM me.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by YOW View Post
        Grrrrr I remember telling my lawyer that this was too vague and it needed some definition.

        If someone has a really good lawyer they would recommend, please feel free to PM me.
        How much you willing to spend. Really good lawyers in my opinion bill 680+ an hour.

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        • #5
          I just want results really. And this persons info would go in my back pocket for now. I'd also like to have my SA reviewed and get their opinion on it sometime, which would likely be the first thing I'd do.

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          • #6
            I do have an end date specified for my spousal support obligations though... so at least there is that.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by YOW View Post
              I do have an end date specified for my spousal support obligations though... so at least there is that.
              That is when it should be reviewed and the easiest time to bring the matter back to court.

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              • #8
                The paragraph that follows says that after such date we are both deemed to be self sufficient and this cannot be changed by any court anywhere (I am of course paraphrasing... but several statements made to reinforce that after such date, no more spousal support... end of discussion, final answer.)

                Does the support recipient have any obligations to show progress to becoming self-sufficient (improving their financial position)? If they have not shown any progress in a few years, is that enough grounds to have the support entitlement questioned?

                What if the recipient chooses to stay in a field of work where pay is limited? By choosing to stay in a pay restricted field, they are intentionally preventing themselves from meeting an obligation, and the support entitlement should be revoked. Thoughts on that?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by YOW View Post
                  Does the support recipient have any obligations to show progress to becoming self-sufficient (improving their financial position?
                  Well, if what you have disclosed about the agreement is truthful... Then by the date specified that they are to be self sufficient they better be... Or they are going to be in trouble.

                  Your challenge is that you agreed to terms that don't define any requirements to actually require the other party to do anything about their situation from the date of agreement to the final "self sufficiency date" stated. So you have no recourse.

                  Be thankful that you have a termination date. But, it can always be contested... Even if it says in the agreement. Just be warned.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                    Be thankful that you have a termination date. But, it can always be contested... Even if it says in the agreement. Just be warned.

                    If the terms about the termination date can be contested, doesn't the same hold true about the lack of clarity of "self-sufficient"? Argue that she is, and then if its ruled that it is not, request specific criteria.

                    I suppose anything can be contested if you are willing to pay the legal fees.

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                    • #11
                      I agree with Tayken that the term is subjective. The concept of SS is so that the recipient becomes self-sufficient over time. In some cases it is not realistic. This is what reviews are for. However, the person receiving the SS has to, in order to continue to receive SS after the review date, be able to prove that they made constructive, measurable efforts to become independently self-sufficient. The decision is then left up to the judge hearing the case: judge's prerogative which is, indeed, subjective.

                      Legal agreements should be specific. You should have a start and end date to SS. Exception to this exists, particularly in cases of long-term marriage when it is unrealistic that someone is going to be self-sufficient and able to work a 9-5 (age). It is commonly accepted across the country that in order to encourage self-sufficiency the way to go about it is to impute income increasing over a specific period of time. Your definition of "self sufficiency" most definitely would be different from your ex's.

                      If I were a payor I would most definitely look to a lump sum payment (or combination of lump and short-term payments) and try to sever things asap.

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                      • #12
                        How many receiving SS actually go above and beyond to become self-sufficient, knowing far too well it's easy to just have someone else give you free money????

                        It will always be realistic to get a job providing there isn't serious medical issues impeding a person from working. I mean even people in wheel chairs work for crying out loud.

                        Originally posted by arabian View Post
                        The concept of SS is so that the recipient becomes self-sufficient over time. In some cases it is not realistic. This is what reviews are for. However, the person receiving the SS has to, in order to continue to receive SS after the review date, be able to prove that they made constructive, measurable efforts to become independently self-sufficient. .

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                        • #13
                          Free money?

                          You had better do some independent research on how entitlement for SS is weighed.

                          FYI - SS is fully taxable for the recipient (and tax deductible for payor). As SS is not 'employment income' do you think there are options for CPP or RRSPs on SS?

                          I take exception to your statement. I am fully self-sufficient. (I can assure you that I don't sit on the couch all day eating bon-bons and watching soaps.)

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                          • #14
                            If you hired me I would kill with this

                            The Wife agrees that she has an obligation and will take all reasonable steps to become self-sufficient at the earliest possible time taking into consideration her childcare responsibilities.
                            The wording is very good EXCEPT for self-sufficient which I will define for you right now....

                            Self-Sufficient is a contextual in relation to the marriage relationship and the duration since the marriage terminated. This means that if you are married to a surgeon and you divorce just at the start of the post marriage phase self-sufficient or "enough" would be to have the same income. As time goes on "self-sufficiency" merges to what you could possibly earn.....

                            Now..... This is how I would approach the arguement
                            1. The statement implies that the parties agree your ex-wife CAN become self-sufficient through reasonable steps (i.e: what a normal person would do) - (hint: leaving out the word reasonable would make the paragrapah much stronger). So you know she can theoretically become self-sufficient either via a training or job applications.

                            2. There IS an end-date which is a "doomsday provision" so that means there is an implication she can reasonably become self-sufficient well before the end-date, otherwise why add the paragraph (i.e: what the parties intended) about effort?

                            3. "Earliest Possible" = very good wording. Legally speaking - "Possible" is a VERY strong word. It is a much better word that "reasonable". You need to create a theoretical timeline from the time of when this agreement was signed to a point in time Y showing how she could have been independant. If it is "possible" and she didn't do the reasonable steps to fulful it then she is in default of the agreement and in the circumstances must lose part if not ALL her alimony.

                            4. "taking into consideration her childcare responsibilities"
                            assuming she has no childcare responsibilities above and beyond other (sole custody?) divorced mothers and the kids are in school full-time (and have no disabilities) then I would argue compared the general population she has no childcare responsibilities at this point preventing her from being full-time employed.

                            The wording could be better, but it is quite strong. You have to approach this like a contractual agreement that she has breached and ask the judge to terminate the alimony in the near future as she has breached the agreement.

                            Comment

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