news article

[tugofwar]

Story that made the news paper recently:

Clairmont: How a Hamilton mom lost her boys to their father

[Mother]

"And once the boys were placed with dad, says Freeman, the court did not monitor their progress." - This is troubling. No one follows up, no one cares, OCL assessment is mostly an educated (and sometimes not even) guess. What can you really deduct observing a child with a parent for an hour or so?

No, I am not pro-women in case you wonder.

[blinkandimgone]

I don't believe they had any reason to. There had been no indications up to that point that he was an unfit or incapable father, he was simply a dad raising his kids. Much like any other dad or mom raising their kids from birth on, the courts don't get involved to monitor them.

[SadAndTired]

I don't believe they had any reason to. There had been no indications up to that point that he was an unfit or incapable father, he was simply a dad raising his kids. Much like any other dad or mom raising their kids from birth on, the courts don't get involved to monitor them.

The article said CAS was involved with the Dad on "several occasions" after Dad got custody....

I always wonder about "parent alienation" too. My ex makes enough choices that hurt or offend my older daughter that he alienates himself from her...... Sad that his behaviour is hurtful to her feelings (not abusive) and that is deemed okay. But if I was to honestly discuss his choices with our children, I would be alienating..... I try so hard to support him in his role as Dad but it is hard to say positive things about choices my daughter rightfully views as hurtful to her.

[Mother]

I don't believe they had any reason to. There had been no indications up to that point that he was an unfit or incapable father, he was simply a dad raising his kids. Much like any other dad or mom raising their kids from birth on, the courts don't get involved to monitor them.

Why not?

Just recently a child has died in a home daycare in Vaughan, ON. There were 3 complains filed with regards to this daycare. Only one was followed up. An innocent child is lost. Am I making myself clear?

When it comes to such an important decision as child custody, you cannot possibly guarantee that any assessment is an accurate one and will work, even if the most experienced assessor is involved. So why not do a follow up? We are talking children here, we are talking parents and often high conflict situations.

[blinkandimgone]

The article said CAS was involved with the Dad on "several occasions" after Dad got custody....

What the article says is "And once the boys were placed with dad, says Freeman, the court did not monitor their progress. "

CAS had not been involved at that point, no reason for the courts to follow up.

Not to say there shouldn't have been some looking into it AFTER CAS was involved, had mom or someone asked them to, however the courts don't generally get involved in following up with kids simply because of a custody battle.

[SadAndTired]

What the article says is "And once the boys were placed with dad, says Freeman, the court did not monitor their progress. "

CAS had not been involved at that point, no reason for the courts to follow up.

Not to say there shouldn't have been some looking into it AFTER CAS was involved, had mom or someone asked them to, however the courts don't generally get involved in following up with kids simply because of a custody battle.

Yes, sorry. Didn't mean that my quote was about them having reason to follow up. Just meant the trouble started after. I was trying to be too brief.

Agree with your point above.

[blinkandimgone]

Why not?

Just recently a child has died in a home daycare in Vaughan, ON. There were 3 complains filed with regards to this daycare. Only one was followed up. An innocent child is lost. Am I making myself clear?

When it comes to such an important decision as child custody, you cannot possibly guarantee that any assessment is an accurate one and will work, even if the most experienced assessor is involved. So why not do a follow up? We are talking children here, we are talking parents and often high conflict situations.

Your reasoning is both flawed and ridiculous. Under your theory, all children should be followed from birth onwards. The courts don't get involved unless there has been a complaint. At the time the courts were involved, there had yet to be a complaint.

What you are referencing with the daycare example is a completely different issue altogether, nothing to do with child custody or children being followed by the courts after a simple change in custody when no reports have been made.

[SadAndTired]

Your reasoning is both flawed and ridiculous. Under your theory, all children should be followed from birth onwards. The courts don't get involved unless there has been a complaint. At the time the courts were involved, there had yet to be a complaint.

What you are referencing with the daycare example is a completely different issue altogether, nothing to do with child custody or children being followed by the courts after a simple change in custody when no reports have been made.

I do sort of see how a follow up visit by the original assessor or OCL could be helpful when dealing with high conflict custody battles, just to make sure the best decision was made for the children.

[Mother]

Your reasoning is both flawed and ridiculous. Under your theory, all children should be followed from birth onwards. The courts don't get involved unless there has been a complaint. At the time the courts were involved, there had yet to be a complaint.

What you are referencing with the daycare example is a completely different issue altogether, nothing to do with child custody or children being followed by the courts after a simple change in custody when no reports have been made.

No it is not ridiculous at all. Is an assessment was done, don't se why not to follow up on their assessment if it was the base for the decision on custody.

My daycare case example is made with regards to the follow ups issues, not custody. You just didn't get it, sorry.

[Qrious]

It seems possible that the OCL, in trying to find fault with mom, may not have looked enough into dad.... Wonder what qualifications or experience the assessor had?

Or things with dad fell apart some time after that assessment.

Sure makes you wonder.

S&T - I recently found a case where the judge referred to that self-alienating behaviour as, "justified estrangement."

[blinkandimgone]

No it is not ridiculous at all. Is an assessment was done, don't se why not to follow up on their assessment if it was the base for the decision on custody.

My daycare case example is made with regards to the follow ups issues, not custody. You just didn't get it, sorry.

LOL! I get it, you're just comparing apples to oranges. At the time custody was awarded, there was no reason, no need for an assessment or any follow up. Anyone can procreate without an assessment, why should the father who had NO previous incidents whatsoever be forced to undergo an assessment or be followed by the courts to prove he could parent? Was the mother subjected to the same upon the birth of the children to ensure SHE was capable of parenting? Was she assessed before leaving the hospital with the children on whether it was ok for her to have custody of the kids?

The original assessment was done by an ART THERAPIST at the request of the mother and completely dismissed - as it should be.

Your daycare example is indeed ridiculous and flawed, in regards to the original comment I responded to which was a question on why the courts hadn't followed up after the dad was awarded custody - NOT in regards to whether there was or wasn't any follow up after CAS was involved - on which I have not once commented on.

Sorry that you just don't get it.

[standing on the sidelines]

"And once the boys were placed with dad, says Freeman, the court did not monitor their progress." - This is troubling. No one follows up, no one cares, OCL assessment is mostly an educated (and sometimes not even) guess. What can you really deduct observing a child with a parent for an hour or so?

No, I am not pro-women in case you wonder.

It doesnt really say if now that the kids are back with the mother if the court is following up with her to make sure there is no parential alienation on her part again. Sword should cut both ways. She has already proven by her past actions that she isnt a good parent in regards to the relationship of children and father.
Maybe if she would have fostered a good relationship between the kids and their father at the start, the issues wouldnt have come up.

[HammerDad]

That article is very one sided.

PAS likely did exist when the courts altered the parenting arrangement. It is quite possible it still exists and the issues with the CAS may be related to it. All hypothetical, but reasonably possible.

To be honest, that article had little to no details/facts. It was just a fluff piece which said very very little at all.

[OrleansLawyer]

I do sort of see how a follow up visit by the original assessor or OCL could be helpful when dealing with high conflict custody battles, just to make sure the best decision was made for the children.

Is an assessment was done, don't se why not to follow up on their assessment if it was the base for the decision on custody.

How many fewer cases could the OCL take, if they needed to follow up on existing ones afterwards?

What is the solution, in the event hindsight suggests a different course of action? Start over with a new investigation?

It was just a fluff piece

You may find the author's weak writing impacts your willingness to consider them an unbiased view, or to accept their conclusions. The same can be said for legal writing, when drafting pleadings, affidavits or briefs. Food for thought.