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  • #16
    My lawyer is already drafting the motion.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Janus View Post
      That's a good thing, you don't want supervised parenting time, but you are still a long ways away from 50%, which is what you need to end alienation.
      I'd say that even just a few hours a week seems sufficient to do quite a bit of alienation. My ex has done this quite frequently even though she only sees them 3 x 4 hours per week at this point. The stuff she told them and wrote to them.. it made the kids therapist feel sick. It's no wonder my youngest one had tantrums at home and was confused. This has stopped but I know it will happen again, it's now the calm before the storm.

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      • #18
        You are confusing two terms:

        A) Alienation
        B) Insulting

        It is almost impossible for a 50%+ parent to be alienated. I would actually say impossible but I'm very leery of that term. Alienation requires kids to have an unrealistic view of a parent that completely contradicts reality. That's tricky if the kids spend a lot of time with the parent, because the reality they see will trump the version they hear.

        I'm sure your ex is insulting which makes the kids feel bad and such. That is not alienation. Shepherd is probably not being alienated either (more likely explanation is that his kids are pissed that he bailed out of their lives), but since he does not see his kids he is definitely at risk for it.

        You cannot be alienated if your ex only sees the kids 4 hours a week. Simply not possible. Perhaps you are a douchebag and ex is exposing that, but that's not exactly the same thing.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by shepherd View Post
          Nope, nada. Back in April, CAS was prepared to allow my daughter to live with me due to concerns over the behaviour of her older sibling. If they don't have an issue with me, I don't see how a judge would.
          So all the allegations are false? You've never engaged in conflict enough to have CAS involved with your child(ren)?

          I'm confused by your posts. You left your house last November to avoid conflict. What was the conflict? Who initiated the conflict? What actually happened?

          You have more than 1 child? Cause your other posts talks about visits with your 11 year old.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Janus View Post
            You are confusing two terms:

            A) Alienation
            B) Insulting

            ...

            You cannot be alienated if your ex only sees the kids 4 hours a week. Simply not possible. Perhaps you are a douchebag and ex is exposing that, but that's not exactly the same thing.
            Fair enough. But damage can be done. In my case, she was persuasive enough to put doubts in their mind for them to believe part of her "reality". She's been diagnosed BPD (and has other cluster B traits, and is using that diagnosis in her criminal court proceedings and divorce filings) so of course she blames everything on others and does a lot of emotional reasoning / believes that she is the best parent. Really messed up and their smear campaign is terrible (for those interested, a tour of the bpdfamily divorce forum is quite enlightening)

            The kids will come home from the visits and would say troubling things and have quite the temper. The inappropriate messages she sent the kids also troubled the lawyer / kids therapist and CAS. Yes, due to the short visits (which used to be much longer before multiple "incidents") I was able to "salvage" them before the next day but my youngest one was always mad at me and say stuff like:
            - I understand why mom did not like you, you never did anything for me. You were not there when I was born and never teached me anything. She did everything and you were only working.
            - I don't know who to believe between mom and you
            - It's all your fault that mommy is not doing well and has anger crisis like this

            One night the oldest one couldn't sleep... I learned that it was because she told them that I had sexually assaulted her (a classic BPD smear campaign). He was quite confused...

            The kids have been distancing themselves a bit from her now that they realize that she is ill and that's why she says these things (thanks to the therapist who helped them understand that) and I can now "fix" the kids within a few hours, as opposed to a day, when they are back from a visit. The shorter visits likely help since they don't spend all their energy being hyper vigilant around her.

            A lot of damage can be done in a day when you are persuasive / manipulative enough and distort facts. As George Costanza would say: it's not a lie if you believe it. Cluster-B personalities are great at doing that.

            Once in a while she does realize the damage she does to the kids and says that I should get full custody / primary residence but a few days later she changes her mind because "it never happened" and "she is the better parent".

            I was going to say I might have a unique case but from browsing online, there are many fathers like me. It sucks. But I've never seen the kids so happy and relaxed on their days off (ie: when there are no visits) so I keep pushing ahead.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
              So all the allegations are false? You've never engaged in conflict enough to have CAS involved with your child(ren)?

              I'm confused by your posts. You left your house last November to avoid conflict. What was the conflict? Who initiated the conflict? What actually happened?

              You have more than 1 child? Cause your other posts talks about visits with your 11 year old.
              The conflict was arguing with STBX, and with S16, who has become increasingly aggressive and abusive in the past few years. There were instances where I restrained my son from doing damage to himself, property, and when he was threatening me. CAS was never involved after these.

              I reference only my D11 because son is too old to force access upon.
              Last edited by shepherd; 07-11-2019, 02:39 PM. Reason: spelling

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              • #22
                Just wanted to say I am so sorry for what you are dealing with. It sounds so painful and disruptive. My expdh is mentally ill and I know the torture you speak of regarding trying to deal and cope with their behaviour, the damage it does to kids and to yourself. I hope you get access soon.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by shepherd View Post
                  The conflict was arguing with STBX, and with S16, who has become increasingly aggressive and abusive in the past few years. There were instances where I restrained my son from doing damage to himself, property, and when he was threatening me. CAS was never involved after these.

                  I reference only my D11 because son is too old to force access upon.
                  So what are you doing for S16?

                  I'm still confused. Have you just given up hope with S16?

                  How exactly did your ex jedi-mind-trick your children to believing all this stuff if you were living with them?

                  You can see my skepticism here, right?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
                    How exactly did your ex jedi-mind-trick your children to believing all this stuff if you were living with them?

                    The book I often reference (A Family’s Heartbreak) goes into detail on how these things happen. The author had alienation happen to him BEFORE he moved out. A parent who is intent on damaging the relationship between the other parent and their child will begin the work before a split ever happens.

                    “Do you see how mean your dad is to me?” “Oh daddy is just hurting mommy’s feelings again” “mommy is crying because daddy mad her sad” etc.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                      The book I often reference (A Family’s Heartbreak) goes into detail on how these things happen. The author had alienation happen to him BEFORE he moved out. A parent who is intent on damaging the relationship between the other parent and their child will begin the work before a split ever happens.

                      “Do you see how mean your dad is to me?” “Oh daddy is just hurting mommy’s feelings again” “mommy is crying because daddy mad her sad” etc.
                      oh. wow.

                      okay- my bad. OP- I'm going to take back that question.

                      I'm still skeptical of the OP a bit- but I also bring my inherent bias into things- I know that.

                      OP- have you been able to secure some therapy for yourself? From your posts- I've gathered that you're not impecunious. This is a shit process- and not having your kids around is terrible...hopefully you have some help to deal with that.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
                        So what are you doing for S16?

                        I'm still confused. Have you just given up hope with S16?

                        How exactly did your ex jedi-mind-trick your children to believing all this stuff if you were living with them?

                        You can see my skepticism here, right?
                        I have not given up hope for S16, but his age gives him voting power in any custody determination. He refuses to attend therapy, and since he is older than 12, has the legal right to refuse mental health care.

                        Yes, I understand where you're coming from. However, alienation can occur even with both parents in the same home, prior to a separation or divorce.
                        My STBX was a stay at home mom, we have been essentially separated for close to three years (more roommates than married, slept separate, etc.) During that time, S16 has learned that he doesn't have to listen to me because Mom gives in to anything he screams for, from new video games to not attending school. Since my departure, she has shared verbatim emails and texts, told them I wasn't giving them enough money to live on, that I have bought a new home and car already, etc. CAS worker told me she has seen alienating behaviours on stbx and S16's behalf, influencing D11. One of them taught D11 how to block me on Facetime, because I know she did not know how.

                        Am I a perfect father? No, but I certainly have not abused my children, nor earned "I hope you die and I never have to see you again" from my D11.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shepherd View Post
                          Am I a perfect father? No, but I certainly have not abused my children, nor earned "I hope you die and I never have to see you again" from my D11.
                          My S10 said that a few times when under high stress due to his mother..

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
                            oh. wow.

                            okay- my bad. OP- I'm going to take back that question.

                            I'm still skeptical of the OP a bit- but I also bring my inherent bias into things- I know that.

                            OP- have you been able to secure some therapy for yourself? From your posts- I've gathered that you're not impecunious. This is a shit process- and not having your kids around is terrible...hopefully you have some help to deal with that.
                            Thank you Rockscan for that reference...I have been reading a lot about PA, and I am aware it is abused as much as any other false allegation, but a lot of the boxes are ticked.

                            Iona, I can appreciate your skepticism. I am in fact the stereotypical suit wearing father who wasn't home until 6 or 7 pm most week nights. The automatic assumption is that if a kid is mad at their parent, he must have done something to deserve it. Add in the STBX's filings of emotional and physical abuse, and believe me, I am more than conscious of how I might be seen upon first inspection.

                            One of the facets of PA is the enabling of the child to behave in a grandiose manner, speaking down to the targeted parent, as a way of aligning themselves with the favored parent. Family systems experts refer to this as a "cross-generational coalition", or "triangulation". The alienated child is in fact eliciting a response from the targeted parent, and then uses the negative parental response as their rationale for rejecting the parent. Dr C.A. Childress covers this fairly extensively.

                            I indeed have a healthy benefits package, and saw a therapist the second night after I left the home. I continue to see one bi-weekly, barring my work or their vacations. This is indeed a shit process, and not having my kids around is essentially an evolutionary PTSD response...for months I would be in full panic mode all day, my lizard brain screaming "where are my babies?!?". I want what's best for my kids, and what they have been receiving is not it, despite their objections to the contrary.

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                            • #29
                              I'm so sorry you are going through all this. This is not pleasant for anyone, trust me. All I can say (and I'm sure others will say the same thing) is be patient. Think of them as being hostages. It can't be easy for them to be bombarded with horrible tales about you, etc... Stay strong, seek counselling and stay close to family and friends. It's going to be a long road. I would recommend a short book called "Co-parenting with a toxic ex". It's not what it sounds like and basically gives you tips on how to stay connected with your kids. They may distance themselves from you and may say some very nasty things, but they are children. They don't actually develop properly until their mid to late 20's... so hold on to hope. Stay strong and calm.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Thanks, Tired_Dad, I appreciate the support.

                                Comment

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