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  • Courthouse Clerks

    How many self-represented people are experiencing, or have experienced, difficulties with the court's clerks when filing motions, other documents or obtaining attestations?

  • #2
    Actually I found the clerks to be both helpful and unhelpful. When I was helping my lawyer by filing her materials the clerks once told me my lawyer was doing it wrong ( they were wrong not my lawyer). When I had to go self rep at one time I found that I got the TMC date my lawyer couldn’t get for me because the clerk bent over backwards to help me.

    When I needed a copy of the court transcripts they were elusive as hell, sending me on a wild goose chase. Never did get those transcripts!
    Last edited by Stillbreathing; 09-09-2018, 08:42 PM.

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    • #3
      My experience was as a self-represented (newly) litigant in a new province. I recall thinking wistfully to times in the past when the lawyer's office took care of all the "stuff."

      I found the clerks to be generally quite helpful. Some were abrupt though but I learned to listen carefully and take notes when needed so I didn't have to wait in line again . I did notice many guys there who were extremely frustrated as they were not organized at all. This was quite taxing on the clerks who probably resent hand-holding. However, they were all-in-all quite professional.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MS Mom View Post
        How many self-represented people are experiencing, or have experienced, difficulties with the court's clerks when filing motions, other documents or obtaining attestations?
        I had been self rep'ed for 6 years. I have never had difficulties, although they have sent me away when I don't have my act together. They are gatekeepers in that they must ensure what appears before the Justice's is not garbage. Treat the clerks with respect, and make sure you have your sh*t together prior to talking to them. They will come to respect you and that respect will translate into some slack when you need it.

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        • #5
          I'm asking because I was recently told by ISO/FRO superior that my experience with the clerks isn't unique.

          They've refused to accept a financial statement because they didn't believe you could obtain a tax return from the Service Canada CRA website.

          Then they refused to accept the same financial statement because they didn't believe my H&R block prepared tax return was, in fact, a tax return. I even had the receipt from paying for the service (which was insisted upon by the opposing counsel, I usually prepare my own taxes).

          They've refused to issue orders, taking 9 months to issue an order.

          Recently, they refused to accept a motion to change citing it must be an ISO application. I protested with their superiors, who informed me in writing that the clerks were correct. That was May 2016.

          When I completed the ISO package, they refused to attest it.

          Last week I found out from ISO that the motion should have been filed in Ontario, as I stated in May 2016.

          ISO is mandated to forward all applications to the other jurisdiction even if it isn't correct. While one would assume that receiving notice from ISO that the package was forwarded to the other jurisdiction, that it is correct, but ISO tells me that is not the case. They aren't allowed to refuse applications unless they are incomplete or otherwise missing information.

          It took the other jurisdiction until September 2018 to reject hearing the motion.

          So, now I'm back where I started with the clerks who refused to accept the Ontario motion in 2016.

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          • #6
            ISOs (inter jurisdictional support orders) take a long time and they are quite confusing. Often people at courthouse (and judges) are unsure of the correct process. The important thing is that you know the correct process. It can take anywhere up to 2 years for these things. Serving someone correctly remains very important.

            You would need a NOA which you can get from CRA online (with your password). You can also have CRA send you their summary of your tax return(s) which is commonly accepted by courts.

            I have been having to deal with ISOs for past few years. Feel free to PM me and perhaps I can help.

            I observe clerks at courthouse make mistakes (be sure every single page of everything is stamped correctly).

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            • #7
              I appreciate your offer of assistance, but my Motion to Change should never have been directed to ISO at all. This has been verified by the opposing jurisdiction, ISO and an upper ranking MAG official.

              The aggravating part is because I had such difficulty in getting my prior order issued, I had to involve courthouse superiors. I went to this same superior when my 2016 Motion was rejected by the clerks. The superior indicated, in writing, that the clerks were correct and refused any other assistance. Subsequent correspondence to this person went unanswered. I was sure that I had the correct jurisdiction for the circumstances in question.

              The clerks were never correct. The courthouse supervisor wasn't correct. They should have accepted my completed Motion to Change in May 2016.

              I thought court clerks weren't supposed to offer legal advice for this very reason?
              Last edited by MS Mom; 09-10-2018, 12:11 PM.

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              • #8
                I don't need any tax returns or anything submitted any longer. Those are just a small sampling of the difficulties I have had with the clerks.

                Opposing counsel, although directed to, did not get the judge's order endorsed. I never saw a copy of what the judge was requiring at that time. I was not aware that I needed the entire tax return, and in reality, it shouldn't have been needed.

                First attempt - no tax return.
                Second attempt - tax return provided via printout from CRA website. They told me I couldn't get tax information from the Service Canada website (clearly you can)
                Third attempt - completed tax return from H&R Block, with the actual receipt for payment of service. They said it wasn't a tax return. I had to call for a superior who looked at the clerks like they were crazy and stated "this is exactly what a tax return looks like". They finally accepted it on that.

                All of the above, unnecessary.

                In order to get the order issued, I had to call MAG and indicate to them that their clerks were refusing to issue the order. That's when I was put in contact with a different superior at the courthouse who was appalled at what I'd already been through. She managed to get my order done within 24 hours.

                But, my very next trip to the courthouse in May 2016, they refused the Motion to Change, directed me to ISO.

                Months later, ISO package prepared, off to the courthouse for attestation and was told "we don't do that here", and sent away. A few weeks later, went to the courthouse again for attestation, and managed to get it done with zero hassle.

                It took from August 2017 to September 2018 for ISO to inform me that the other jurisdiction rejected my motion, stating they don't have jurisdiction and I must apply locally.

                ISO verifies that there was never any question on who had jurisdiction, but because of their internal rule that they aren't allowed to reject an ISO application unless it is incomplete. I wasn't informed of any of this until last week.

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                • #9
                  They've refused to accept a financial statement because they didn't believe you could obtain a tax return from the Service Canada CRA website.

                  Then they refused to accept the same financial statement because they didn't believe my H&R block prepared tax return was, in fact, a tax return.
                  The only time you file tax returns is if you are doing a refraining motion (stopping FRO from suspending your driver's license). You file notices of assessment with financial statements on a motion to change. ISO may be different, or may not be different.

                  ISO application
                  These are very uncommon. If you are at a larger population centre there may be a dedicated clerk for this, however usually there is not. It is possible the clerk is wrong.

                  Opposing counsel, although directed to, did not get the judge's order endorsed.
                  Generally, the successful party gets the order issued - however if they fail to, the other party can get it. If you want something, do not rely on your ex's lawyer doing it for you.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by OrleansLawyer View Post
                    The only time you file tax returns is if you are doing a refraining motion (stopping FRO from suspending your driver's license). You file notices of assessment with financial statements on a motion to change. ISO may be different, or may not be different.



                    These are very uncommon. If you are at a larger population centre there may be a dedicated clerk for this, however usually there is not. It is possible the clerk is wrong.



                    Generally, the successful party gets the order issued - however if they fail to, the other party can get it. If you want something, do not rely on your ex's lawyer doing it for you.
                    Thank you Orleans Lawyer.

                    I had to file the tax return as part of a financial statement mid-way through the motion process. The other side, despite providing T4s and NOAs, refused to believe I was no longer self-employed and wanted to examine my taxes. In reality, I had not been self-employed for many years, but they didn't believe me.

                    I was 100% aware how the orders get issued. I was the successful party. I followed the rules, providing a draft to the other side, waiting out the time, and then presenting all to the courthouse for issuance. But they refused. As opposing side had a lawyer, the clerk said it was procedure for the officer of the court to issue the orders, even if unsuccessful.

                    Reasons for Judgment were issued on July 31, 2014. Order was not obtained from the courthouse until I complained to MAG about the problems. I finally received the order from the court on January 15, 2015.

                    My Motion to Change was never an ISO case. I knew that in May 2016 when I attempted to file it. The clerk handed me a huge ISO package and sent me on my way. I consulted my research, spoke with a lawyer, and I'm still sure I'm correct that it should be heard in Ontario. So, I reached out to the same MAG supervisor who helped get the order issued. That supervisor concurred with the clerks and told me to file the motion via ISO.

                    So, I filed ISO. ISO unit now tells me that they aren't allowed to reject an application unless it is incomplete. From my perspective, them forwarding it on to the other jurisdiction meant it was to be heard in that court. It took 13 months for the other jurisdiction to reject it citing they had no jurisdiction.

                    I feel like I've been forced to take legal advice from the clerks that I never asked for or never wanted. But, without the cooperation to accept the Motion to Change, where do I go from there?

                    So now, over 2 years later, I'm in the same spot as May 2016. Having to go back to the same courthouse with the same difficult clerks to file the same paperwork as I did in 2016. I feel like I'm on a merry-go-round.

                    Comment

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