This might be a new one!

[jennw]

@Arabian, "Back to the OP - I'm curious on how the out-of-pocket/ section 7 expenses are currently handled. You say that the ex comes to "us" all the time about that. Do you guys just cut her a cheque or reimburse her on the spot or what? Does she send you bills/statements? "

No, we do not just cut a cheque every time. In fact we have argued our position each and every time regarding child support and it covering the things she is asking for. But, as the most recent example she presented us with an amount of close to $3000 for 4 activities coming up for the Fall through to the Spring and asked my ex if he could contribute his 'share'. My guess is, with 3 other kids as well, expenses add up and she feels like she's getting the short end of the stick with regards to the one daughter. We have explained we cannot afford 'extra' given our financial situation and that if she can't make it work with the support then maybe the daughter does less. Its just exhausting and makes us feel like deadbeats all the time. Coming up the million dollar lifestyle is impossible.

The reason I posted this to begin with is we are getting very tired of having to have the arguement over and over. We are tired of the ex constantly complaining that his money doesn't do 'enough'...when she doesn't even work!! We do not go back and forth to court or to our lawyer as we're not silly enough to waste our time.

I simply wanted some true facts as to how it would be handled 'hypothetically'..so that if needed we could send a message more strongly to the ex in order to end the madness every month.

You have commented quite a bit but the actual answers I was looking for have yet still not been answered. Especially the one that if she has 'no income' then her family income would be used, would mine not be as well?

[blinkandimgone]

She cannot have an income of zero, you would impute an income to her rather than using the 'family income'. It's my understanding that family income is only used when there is a claim for undue hardship by the payor at which point your income would come into play.

However, that isn't the case. The answer to your questions was to have an income imputed to her.

[winterwolf7]

Generally section 7 expenses have to be "reasonable" or "necessary" as well.

The point of child support is to try to keep the children in the same standard of living that the couples previously enjoyed when married, as much as possible. If the new partner is now leagues and bounds ahead in a new world of rich people, luxury and their entertainments, the OP's husband has a duty to contribute to reasonable expenses that would be appropriate to their standard of living, not that of the new, wealthy high life.

Unfortunately I don't see any good way to dry the line with expenses :P imputing income is the best solution.

[arabian]

Mess: Thank you for your writing tips. I will be sure to include "in my opinion, etc." more often in my posts. I appreciate your feedback as you didn't attack me personally. I know I have a strong, aggressive writing style. I will try my best to soften it in the future so as not to upset everyone. Again thank you responding in an honest, frank manner that did not put me immediately on the defensive.

[jennw]

She cannot have an income of zero, you would impute an income to her rather than using the 'family income'. It's my understanding that family income is only used when there is a claim for undue hardship by the payor at which point your income would come into play.

However, that isn't the case. The answer to your questions was to have an income imputed to her.

Thank you blinkandimgone...if she hasn't worked in @7 years would we use what she made 7 years ago? (she is a nurse..and likely will have made a substantial amount more by now).

As well..what if she chooses to only work part-time (which is what we've heard may happen)..of 1 day a week. Would we still base the income on full time?

[arabian]

Jenn: In my opinion, you might approach assessing income by first determining if she is a BScN or RN. You can then look at medi-clinic as well as hospital employment postings and/or call and ask them what their fte rate is.

[HammerDad]

Thank you blinkandimgone...if she hasn't worked in @7 years would we use what she made 7 years ago? (she is a nurse..and likely will have made a substantial amount more by now).

As well..what if she chooses to only work part-time (which is what we've heard may happen)..of 1 day a week. Would we still base the income on full time?

An income equal to what she is capable of making should be imputed to the non-working parent. It is unlikely you will be able to add in years of experienced missed due to her unemployment. But you do have to take into consideration the going rates in your location, the job market and her experience. But if she is capable of earning $35-$40k a year as a nurse in your area, you use that and state that you will use that as the figure going forward. Provide workopolis or other website links equal to her qualifications showing what she could be making to back up your reasoning.

But she cannot claim an income of zero for just this reason. An income must be attributable to each parent. A CP is as obligated to support the children as the NCP.

[ddol1]

jennw - you ask re what do you do to stop the constant requests for nickle and diming plus the difference between providing basic support for a child as during the marriage versus contributing to "The Jones" which I believe is a universal term for live the same lifestyle as the "rich" down the street. In your case it is the Ex's new spouse who is the Jones and the Ex is enjoying the benefit and luxury of being fully supported and living in a new higher lifestyle and now what is important I think - and that the Ex wishes for support to keep up to this new lifestyle at your partners expense. We all know this is wrong.

What I suggest is for you to prepare a one time communication in writing that details specifically what are allowable section 7 expenses, (hopefully you can find a good list somewhere to use?) and anything outside that list will not even be considered or replied. Should you chose to reply I would just prepare a standard response which will be sent as the response to such "poor" requests. Maybe it could sound like, Thank you for your continued concern in our daughter's support but your requests do not meet the criteria for valid expenses and as such will not be considered. (maybe you could add considered or discussed any further). Should you feel that there are any other expense that meets the section 7 criteria please do forward for our consideration. Thank you.

As you can see I put a sample response that you could do much better - but save it and reuse it each time --- very little effort on your part from now on. I personally understand the wieght that can be placed on your shoulders to provide even reasonable support for your daughter to meet the lifestyle your daughter lived in the past and you will continue to do so to the best of your ability. I can only say that our 3 children accepted that we (I) just was not able to keep up with what luxuries their peers were lucky enough to enjoy and we did what we could. I always managed the basics with the occasional splurge and as our children were able to work - they did so and they supported their own luxuries.

As to your daughter while at the home of Ex and enjoying the lifestyle that the Ex's new partner can provide I would suggest that this extra lifestyle should then be the responsability of your Ex alone (which means the Ex's new partner who has the finances to do so). Make it clear to the Ex in writing that you understand this and your families income just can't support this "higher lifestyle" and you do not intend on trying. You will raise and provide for your daughter to the level that is appropriate given your incomes - period!!

long post - imputing income, you hear and read that income be imputed to the ability of the parent given their work experience but I actually think Mess' statement really has merit in which you would have a valid position. You impute the income to the Ex using the family income because the ex has none and her new partner is willing to support her fully -- his income will be argued as the income available for support and section 7 expenses until the Ex chooses to return to work to meet her income potential. As to your partner - he is working hard and to the best of his potential at this time - so it is only his income, as it should be, that will be used to determine tabled support and share of the valid extra section 7 expenses.

[ddol1]

Jennw - yes I have followed your thread closely as I fear these issues will apply to my circumstance one day....learn, learn learn!

Blink! - Way to go! Thank you for your spirited opinion which is always presented to get members to think - even if you do not agree you present solid arguements to every member here..... what makes for a solid choice for Moderator IMHO!

arabian - thank you for recognizing Mess' attempt at explaining IMHO and providing opinion as solid advice that would be used and accepted by the legal profession and the courts today without indicating it to the OP. I know I have politely tried several times and I know that I have had PM's from confused members from your rightfull opinion presented on this public forum of people who are trying to learn usable facts and information the best they are able.

[OrleansLawyer]

Since there is substantial good advice already given in this thread concerning imputing income to the Ex, I hoped to touch on one other aspect of extraordinary expenses. She cannot incur them without your consent. If she comes to you saying she paid XXX for YYY, and you didn't consent, it is not unreasonable for you to tell her to talk a long walk off a short dock.

If she asks for your consent, you may decline to give it if doing so is reasonable. Ie, if she wants to wrack up 100k in extraordinary expenses because the new hubby is bankrolling her, you can withhold consent on the grounds that your finances do not permit you to entertain your child so thoroughly.

[jennw]

[QUOTE=ddol1;99812]

What I suggest is for you to prepare a one time communication in writing that details specifically what are allowable section 7 expenses, (hopefully you can find a good list somewhere to use?) and anything outside that list will not even be considered or replied. Should you chose to reply I would just prepare a standard response which will be sent as the response to such "poor" requests. Maybe it could sound like, Thank you for your continued concern in our daughter's support but your requests do not meet the criteria for valid expenses and as such will not be considered. (maybe you could add considered or discussed any further). Should you feel that there are any other expense that meets the section 7 criteria please do forward for our consideration. Thank you.

Thank you everyone!!

ddol1...LOVE your response and will likely use a version of that. Great stuff!!