Urgent advice needed - custody

[Kimberley]

I haven't posted in a long time, but today I could use some urgent help.

My ex & I have been divorced for years, custody stuff has been dealt with for years with final orders and such.

The issue is this - our final order effective July 1 2011 has two of our 4 kids living with him, with the youngest two with me.

At this point in life, the oldest two are now adults, but the youngest two are 16 and 15; the issue that has cropped up is with the 15 yr old.

My ex exercises almost zero visitation - our final order doesn't even touch on visitation since at that time the kids were at an age to decide it for themselves and that's how it has been. The 16 yr old has cut off all contact with his father for nearly 3 years of his own choice which I will not get in to in this post.

The 15 yr old went on what started out as a 3 day visit which stretched into a week, which is stretching in to 2 weeks. Today I get a facebook message from my 15 yr old telling me he wants to live with his father. I told him that we will discuss it when he comes home to which he responded no, it's my choice.

I called the ex who did nothing but argue, yell, claim I typed things in chat to our 15 yr old that I certainly didn't, claimed he would bring him home on saturday but he wants to live with him and blah blah blah.

Now, an old addition to this - my ex's now wife was previously charged and convicted of assault with a weapon in 2008 for beating up this same 15 yr old back when he was 8 yrs old with the hard plastic tubing from a vacuum hose.
While the restraining order and such have long run their course, the concern will always remain.

My son might be 15 in age, but he's far behind his actual age in maturity, comprehension, life skills etc - basically he's more like a 12 yr old.

I'm at a loss here and could use some advice. I don't know what to do.

[DowntroddenDad]

I haven't posted in a long time, but today I could use some urgent help.

My ex & I have been divorced for years, custody stuff has been dealt with for years with final orders and such.

The issue is this - our final order effective July 1 2011 has two of our 4 kids living with him, with the youngest two with me.

At this point in life, the oldest two are now adults, but the youngest two are 16 and 15; the issue that has cropped up is with the 15 yr old.

My ex exercises almost zero visitation - our final order doesn't even touch on visitation since at that time the kids were at an age to decide it for themselves and that's how it has been. The 16 yr old has cut off all contact with his father for nearly 3 years of his own choice which I will not get in to in this post.

The 15 yr old went on what started out as a 3 day visit which stretched into a week, which is stretching in to 2 weeks. Today I get a facebook message from my 15 yr old telling me he wants to live with his father. I told him that we will discuss it when he comes home to which he responded no, it's my choice.

I called the ex who did nothing but argue, yell, claim I typed things in chat to our 15 yr old that I certainly didn't, claimed he would bring him home on saturday but he wants to live with him and blah blah blah.

Now, an old addition to this - my ex's now wife was previously charged and convicted of assault with a weapon in 2008 for beating up this same 15 yr old back when he was 8 yrs old with the hard plastic tubing from a vacuum hose.
While the restraining order and such have long run their course, the concern will always remain.

My son might be 15 in age, but he's far behind his actual age in maturity, comprehension, life skills etc - basically he's more like a 12 yr old.

I'm at a loss here and could use some advice. I don't know what to do.

I'm not a lawyer but....

At the age of 14 a judge would certainly take the child's wishes into account, and so if you go to trial and he still thinks that way, you might not win. And it is in actual years, not any assessment you make about maturity.

I would attempt to de-escalate things with a compromise, especially in light of the issue with the ex's now wife.

Suggest to him a 6 month period of 50/50, then he can make a decision.

No one, 15 or 50, should make such a big decision so quickly and in the heat of an argument.

You could propose a motion to do just that.

[Once.is.enough]

Is there really any good reason not to honour your sons wishes?

[Straittohell]

Your final order didn't touch on visitation because they were old enough to decide for themselves, right?

Sadly, the sword cuts both ways in this case. Although your son may have the judgement of a 12 year old, even a 12 year old will know to get out of his dad's house if his partner is being abusive, and you will have to trust that he will exercise some kind of judgement.

This might very well be a phase that he is going through. Since you have already acknowledged that it is his choice, I suggest you let him make the choice, but keep your door open. Tell him that you don't agree with it, but that you support it, and that you are there whenever he needs you.

[Kimberley]

I'm not a lawyer but....

At the age of 14 a judge would certainly take the child's wishes into account, and so if you go to trial and he still thinks that way, you might not win. And it is in actual years, not any assessment you make about maturity.

I would attempt to de-escalate things with a compromise, especially in light of the issue with the ex's now wife.

Suggest to him a 6 month period of 50/50, then he can make a decision.

No one, 15 or 50, should make such a big decision so quickly and in the heat of an argument.

You could propose a motion to do just that.

I tried to discuss it with the ex - he refused to allow me to speak and hung up the phone; refuses to answer now when I call.

I'm not saying I wouldn't allow him to move there, the issue here is that he went for a visit, and over text based chat he is telling me he wants to live there. This is not something to talk about over chat, which is what I told him, and that I would like for him to come home so we can talk about it. He simply goes off line and I can't talk with him at all.

We live almost 2 hours apart in distance - the ex has recently moved yet again, and I know of the city, but he refuses to give the address now and I have no way of getting that information as the oldest two do not live with him either having moved out before his latest move to a different place.

School starts in less than 3 weeks, and this is literally being thrown at me.

[Kimberley]

Is there really any good reason not to honour your sons wishes?

Your final order didn't touch on visitation because they were old enough to decide for themselves, right?

Sadly, the sword cuts both ways in this case. Although your son may have the judgement of a 12 year old, even a 12 year old will know to get out of his dad's house if his partner is being abusive, and you will have to trust that he will exercise some kind of judgement.

This might very well be a phase that he is going through. Since you have already acknowledged that it is his choice, I suggest you let him make the choice, but keep your door open. Tell him that you don't agree with it, but that you support it, and that you are there whenever he needs you.

As I said in my post, I'm not refusing to allow him to live there, just that there is certainly a better way to do this which includes actually discussing the matter together, not over text based chat where the kid just goes offline after saying 2 sentences.

There is no discussing anything with my ex as he doesn't let me speak, just yells abuse and hangs up the phone as always.

So the question is this - what exactly do I do if the ex refuses to return him as agreed. He only went for a 3 days visit, so just a few things were packed in a suitcase for him, everything else he owns is still here. He's registered to start school on the 2nd here, he has special-ed with specific helpers assigned - heck he has an appointment to choose his locker and get some of his books next week.

[Straittohell]

Oh, I agree, it would be ideal to talk with him about it, but you have to ask yourself how you plan for that converstaion to go. Are you going to be entering the conversation to try and convince him to change his mind, or are you looking at discussing it with him to find out what is needed from you to facilitate a smooth transition?

If he has already made a dumb, rash, teenage decision, he is not looking to discuss anything that doesn't involve you accepting it and helping make it happen. Is it right? No, but it is what it is.

Since his new proposed home is two hours away, there are obviously things that need to be done if he is going to push through with this no matter what.

If you're going to talk about how to make this happen responsibly, I suggest sending him a facebook message that outlines the various things (school, health and SIN card transferring, clothes, personal effects, etc.) that he will need to figure out.

If you're going to talk with him in a manner that tries to change his mind, I suggest sending him a facebook message that outlines your concerns.

Which message do you think that your stubborn, pigheaded teenager (disclaimer: they're all stubborn and pig-headed) is going to reply to? I feel your pain here, I think he is being rash, but I am trying to play the devil's advocate and think about this in a pragmatic fashion.

[Kimberley]

Oh, I agree, it would be ideal to talk with him about it, but you have to ask yourself how you plan for that converstaion to go. Are you going to be entering the conversation to try and convince him to change his mind, or are you looking at discussing it with him to find out what is needed from you to facilitate a smooth transition?

If he has already made a dumb, rash, teenage decision, he is not looking to discuss anything that doesn't involve you accepting it and helping make it happen. Is it right? No, but it is what it is.

Since his new proposed home is two hours away, there are obviously things that need to be done if he is going to push through with this no matter what.

If you're going to talk about how to make this happen responsibly, I suggest sending him a facebook message that outlines the various things (school, health and SIN card transferring, clothes, personal effects, etc.) that he will need to figure out.

If you're going to talk with him in a manner that tries to change his mind, I suggest sending him a facebook message that outlines your concerns.

Which message do you think that your stubborn, pigheaded teenager (disclaimer: they're all stubborn and pig-headed) is going to reply to? I feel your pain here, I think he is being rash, but I am trying to play the devil's advocate and think about this in a pragmatic fashion.

He wants to go, so it's going to have to be about the transition.

I should have prepared better for this though - see the 15 yr old has had a bed-wetting problem that the body has to grow out of, it's genetic, and there is nothing that can medically be done to stop it. I knew 100% that his father would not want him living with him until it finally resolved itself as expected - which happened about a month ago.

I have some really old posts about what a dirty piece of trash my ex is, but we'll leave all that there (I am entitled to be very angry right now).

Anywho, I suppose I thought that when this did happen, there would at least be a transition rather than a brick through a window, otherwise, what's the point in custody orders after kids are 12.

Oh I should add - the visitation portion wasn't put in the final not because it was felt the kids were old enough to decide, but rather to avoid forcing visitation.

See the 16 yr old wanted nothing to do with his father, and if specific visitation was in the order, the ex would have it enforced. It was in the temp and he would make the boy go for visits because it said so, and every time the visit would roll around, the ex would make a scene because the order said blah.
The only way to stop that was to not have it in the order at all so the 16 yr old could simply say no.

[Straittohell]

Good call on leaving the past out, best to manage the present.

I can't blame you for being angry, I hate it when parents choose to be parents when it is 'convenient' for them.

There is not way to be properly prepared for it. I have an 8 year old girl and a 5 year old boy, and they worship the ground I walk on. Six years from now, who knows, it could be a totally different story, and they might want to live with their mom full time. I can be 'prepared' to say yes and not fight them on it because I love them more than I hate my ex, but I can never be emotionally prepared to be gutted like that. It's hard. It feels like a rejection of sorts. I can't imagine what it would be like to be in your shoes, to do so much work for your baby and to then watch it get disregarded.

My girlfriend did that to her dad. He mostly raised her while her mom partied it up and did drugs. Then, we she turned 14, she went to live with mom because mom was permissive, obviously. My girlfriend is now 29, and regrets how she handled it, and wishes that she had never moved out of her dad's place, but that's her adult logic working. Her teenage brain saw an opportunity to PARTY, so she did.

Your son will one day figure out what happened, but as a young male, he's legally stupid until he's 25 years old, give or take a decade.

[Serene]

Your mixing emotion with reason. He did it over text - this is a fact as: a problem without a solution is not a problem but a fact...and one to be coped with over time. He hurt you as he dealt with it over text. Understood. But he is 15 and operates like a 12 year old (your words, not mine).

It's hard to cut the ties with our boys. Rest assured your still his mom.

Let dad worry about registering him in school near his home. Focus on continuing a healthy relationship with him even if from a distance.

[Berner_Faith]

I agree with the other posters. Unfortunately there is really nothing you can do. He is old enough to make his own decisions and I don't think a judge will order a 15 year old to live with one parent over the other.

You don't like that he dealt with it via text, well that's how teens communicate these days... everything is via text or facebook. When I was 16 I moved out of my parents house to live with my bf and his family... that lasted a whole month. Either the child will like it at Dad's and stay or hate it and move back, sometimes you have to let them learn the hard way.

It seems you don't fully understand the wording of your own agreement. First you said there was nothing about access because the kids were old enough to choose and then changed it to there was nothing about access because the oldest didn't want to be forced. It is one or the other and you need to think of the reason no access was discussed, which it seems like it was because the children were old enough to decide.

Support your child in his decision, he won't discuss with you because he is a teenager, just be there for him when he needs you.

[Kimberley]

It seems you don't fully understand the wording of your own agreement. First you said there was nothing about access because the kids were old enough to choose and then changed it to there was nothing about access because the oldest didn't want to be forced. It is one or the other and you need to think of the reason no access was discussed, which it seems like it was because the children were old enough to decide.

It was both, no need to be rude

There are FOUR kids, nothing about access was done because the first two that moved were 16 and 17, the two that stayed with me were 13 and 12. The older two were old enough to decide about visits as they were at the ages where social life and/or part time jobs can take precedence (old enough to decide portion of my post), and so that the 13 yr old would not be forced to have visits when he didn't want any (oldest of the two that stayed with me portion of my post).....

Anywho, Straittohell was quite helpful and I actually stopped checking the thread after, so thank you to him.

[Straittohell]

No problem!