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child support payments to increase May 1

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  • #31
    Amen Beltane!

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    • #32
      Beltane - sorry you view it as flippant. The point of my assertion was that I have yet to meet anyone who is going to turn down money from a former spouse. I don't read into my assertion any specific slight against you or any person who works 3, 5 or 15 jobs and hasn't received a dime in support.

      Also, I work in the family law field, I know both sides of every issue because I am a family mediator. I am the person trying to reframe a stay-at-home parent's reasons for wanting a reasonable spousal support amount and I am also the person helping the father who has lost his job, can't find a job, was downsized and is now $5k in arrears and can't afford to go back to court to vary the order to reflect his change in circumstances.

      This is a web forum - it is best not to take things personally.

      What I will say is the same thing that I tell all (mostly men) spouses whose marriage was traditional and where mom stayed home to raise the kids: wouldn't you want some kind of compensation?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Divorcemanagement
        Beltane - sorry you view it as flippant. The point of my assertion was that I have yet to meet anyone who is going to turn down money from a former spouse.
        Turning down "money" from a former spouse is VERY different from turning down "free money".

        Referring to spousal support as "free money", in my opinion, trivializes the important contribution stay-at-home parents made to the family, and I DO take that personally.

        Spousal support is no more "free money" than child support is "free money".

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        • #34
          Sorry that you feel that way.

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          • #35
            Sorry you don't get it.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Divorcemanagement
              The particular interests of those groups and organizations who supported Bill C-41 is largely moot at this stage of the game. Sure, you can say that politicians are in the back pocket of women's groups. (I have to wonder why fully effective and similar men's organizations with the same kind of clout don't exist or exist largely in a notional capacity and exclusively in cyberspace).
              Your male perspective is interesting Sean, especially as a divorce mediator. How as a mediator do you remain "unbiased"? Although I hope that I have been both fair to the men & women on the this forum, I personally feel sometimes the forum has been "high jacked" by the Father's Rights movement like you say in "cyberspace".

              I wish I could say more about my situation, but fortunately or unfortunately I don't like the media attention as it causes my children undue stress and I will do whatever it takes to protect my children from further "Headline News". My day will come when the children are older.

              I hope to continue to express my "legal experience" and help both men & women, as a complete layman and also from a female prospective.

              Does anyone else feel this is a "father's rights" forum? Or am I just having a "bad day"?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Grace
                Your male perspective is interesting Sean, especially as a divorce mediator. How as a mediator do you remain "unbiased"? Although I hope that I have been both fair to the men & women on the this forum, I personally feel sometimes the forum has been "high jacked" by the Father's Rights movement like you say in "cyberspace"
                Originally posted by Grace
                I hope to continue to express my "legal experience" and help both men & women, as a complete layman and also from a female prospective.

                Does anyone else feel this is a "father's rights" forum? Or am I just having a "bad day"?
                I hear you all the way Grace.... At times I was tempted to leave since my separation has been dealt with but I personally thought this forum needed more female voices to counteract the the "highjacking" by the father's rights. Plus I enjoy the debates too much I think....

                And Grace you are one of the voices of reason here

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                • #38
                  Thanks Jenny, for your input, and I will continue to add my "two cents' into the disucssions. I am all for equal parenting. But in all honestly I believe this is a "father's rights movement" web site. If anyone disagrees with with me please feel free to argue.!!!

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                  • #39
                    I'm starting to feel that way Grace...

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                    • #40
                      Father's rights movement website? Wow ... well first there has to be a father's rights movement and aside from some loosely connected affilliations in Canada, there isn't a movement in the traditional sense. Most of the father's groups are not really groups at all. Just news lists where some men who have been through their own versions of the "divorce from hell" complain amongst themselves about their lot in life. The reason I decided to contribute to this forum is because while there are some polarized opinions, it is largely solution focused and that is a very good thing.

                      Your male perspective is interesting Sean, especially as a divorce mediator. How as a mediator do you remain "unbiased"?
                      How does one remain unbiased? By taking our my as a mediator very very very seriously. Two people voluntarily begin a process that is opposite of litigation, so that is always a good sign. When I am mediating, I ask questions - lots and lots of questions. It helps me develop a hypothesis about the dynamics of the specific conflict issues in front of me. As I continue asking questions, my hypothesis is either confirmed or it is replaced with another hypothesis or what appears to be the genuine dynamic of the dispute.

                      Once I have identified where either party is prepared to be flexible and where they are completely unbending and positional, I focus on getting agreement where the flexibility exists. I write on a flip board. Every point of agreement is written on the flip board - and I generally ask the parties to write down on the flip board that which they have agreed to - point by point.

                      Once we have agreement on all of the areas where the flexibility was, it generally changes either parties attitude about each other and the process of mediation itself. This builds some degree of trust and good will for the harder issues where both sides are positional.

                      I am also unbiased because I am not directly involved in the parties dispute and I am therefore objective enough to not be influenced by either party. While you may feel that I am biased, I respect your opinion and encourage you to read the other contributions to other threads on this forum.

                      As a mediator, I am always fascinated by web forums like this one when the emotions begin to run high or people take other people's posts personally. You see, when you are not directly involved in someone's dispute, you can see both sides quite clearly. Moreover, when you are working in the family law system (and I am confident that Jeff would agree to this) you also recognize the very real limitations of the courts. Very simply, there is law and there is life. Anyone who is looking for a purist definition of justice in a family law dispute will be disappointed. The courts are a blunt instrument - akin to splitting a human hair like an axe. Nobody ever gets 100% of what they want in the family law system. I know this because as a casual observer, I can look at someone who posts here and who has custody of the kids but is not receving child support not as a victim, but rather, as someone who is in a position that a non-custodial parent who doesn't get to live with the kids would only dream about. Similarly, I look at someone who is paying child and spousal support but has the kids every second weekend but who has a $80k/year job as more advantaged than the person who has custody and isn't receiving support.

                      Everything is relative. Somewhere between the two parties in any dispute is the truth. Both are advantaged and both are disadvantaged. I don't believe this site is being hijacked by Father's rights people. Those who believe in that perspective believe themselves to be victims. We have both sides of the divorce issue here - the greater challenge is to try to understand how everyone has experienced divorce and place emphasis on solutions so that people can rebuild their lives and heal their children.
                      Last edited by Divorcemanagement; 04-30-2006, 10:35 PM.

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                      • #41
                        I've moved this thread to the political forum for what should be obvious reasons.

                        I think that, considering the difficulty of the issues being discussed, everyone has been remarkably well behaved, I just want to remind people not to make any personal attacks.
                        Ottawa Divorce

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Grace
                          Does anyone else feel this is a "father's rights" forum? Or am I just having a "bad day"?
                          Hi Grace - sorry you feel that way! That's certainly not the intent. The point of having a separate political forum is to keep this sort of issue in one place so that people looking for support, legal information or just to chat don't need to get involved in this sort of issue, while those who are interested in this sort of issue have a specific place to discuss it.

                          Everyone is allowed to express their opinion, preferably one based on thought and reasoning; the only real rule here is to be courteous. As this last debate has gone on, I've kept a watchful eye on it and I thought that everyone discussed it remarkably well especially considering the intense emotions involved.

                          That being said, if you have any suggestions about this, please let me know, either her or via PM, and I'll certainly give your suggestions serious consideration.
                          Ottawa Divorce

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                          • #43
                            This has been a very interesting thread which confirms my long held belief that it must suck to be a family court judge. As I mentioned in my previous posting, the family law system has very real limitations. Chief among them is the simple (or complex) fact that because of the extreme range of emotions and the very nature of the conflict between the parties, a judge is going to have to sift through their lengthy Affidavits and somehow make a decision that in all likelihood, neither party is going to be crazy about.

                            It's important for anyone who contributes to a forum like this to always remember, nobody on this forum is a judge (also nobody is in a position to judge anyone) and we are all simply muddling through life amid the wide range of emotional, financial and legal issues associated with divorce and post-divorce conflict.

                            We post our opinons, rightly or wrongly, because of how we have experienced divorce and how our divorce has impacted our lives.

                            There certainly are political questions that remain unanswered regarding divorce and family law. There are many voices in the debate and because this is such a hot button issue, it's unlikely that we are going to see any tinkering with any divorce related federal law in this country. Some may believe the child support laws are unfair, some believe they are fabulous. Some resent paying spousal support and some believe they are rightly entitled to compensation. Some people have less than desireable former husbands/wives who don't pay support or who deny access to parents who do pay support. Because there are so few programs and services in our communities to help anyone through the divorce process, many people turn to the Internet for support and information - heck, it's the only game in town when you think about it.

                            Because this is a forum for people to exchange information or points of view, it is important to remember that both sides in a debate are going to contribute their thoughts or input - and sometimes, each side is going to hear something they vigorously disagree with.

                            So keep contributing and keep the discussion vigorous - nobody knows your divorce better than you.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Divorcemanagement
                              We post our opinons, rightly or wrongly, because of how we have experienced divorce and how our divorce has impacted our lives. (snip) Because this is a forum for people to exchange information or points of view, it is important to remember that both sides in a debate are going to contribute their thoughts or input - and sometimes, each side is going to hear something they vigorously disagree with.
                              I'm glad you wrote this Sean... I wouldn't have wanted your feelings hurt when I expressed my opinion on the importance of respecting spousal support in a dignified way.

                              I felt that I couldn't sit back quietly while a good portion of my income was belittled, because "free money" certainly felt, rightly or wrongly, like it was trivializing my hard work... I have absolutely earned spousal support... I'm just getting paid 27 years later.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Divorcemanagement
                                re: Spousal Support - I am a realist and I have yet to meet anyone, male or female who is going to turn down free money.
                                Confirms my point that unfortunately, this forum is turning into a Father's Right Forum, especially when comments like this are coming from a Moderator .

                                Beltane, since you have stayed home in a long term marriage you are entitled to spousal support. I know the system is exhausting both financially and emotionally but hang in there.

                                Comment

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