Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is a pension considered a pre-marital asset?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is a pension considered a pre-marital asset?

    Ex has claimed Nortel shares (for which she had no documentation -yet claimed she had 35K - and are now worth nothing) she owned on the date of marriage are a pre-marital asset that were destined to be her retirement fund.
    She was allowed (by our Arbitrator to put those as a pre-marital asset - however in the same breath the Arbitrator indicated that I could not include my gov't pension accrued to that date as a pre-marital asset.
    I'm trying to understand the difference as both myself and my lawyer are confounded by the decision.
    I have searched the forums for a similar topic but can't seem to find one.

    Anyone?

  • #2
    Pre- marital is pre- marriage. That in itself should answer the question.

    Comment


    • #3
      Don't mean to be obtuse - but are you indicating that it is your 'understanding' that - yes - they should both be considered?
      The error - or perceived error - will result in a significant change regarding an Equalization payment - one that would be worthwhile of an appeal.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm saying "premarital" is premarital. I don't think you can hold one item by one standard and the other at another. Not if you are trying to determine "premarital".

        Ask the arbitrator to show you the definition of premarital.

        Comment


        • #5
          If all the shares were acquired prior to marriage, it is a premarital asset. Period, full stop. If the value was higher on the marriage date than the separation date (inevitable if its Nortel stock), then it is a loss. You should though, insist on seeing the documentation. Stock price on the day of the wedding and on the day of separation is easy to get, all you need ot know is how many shares were involved.

          Your pension is split based on the time together.

          I wouldn't spend any time or money fighting this, it is the way it is.
          Last edited by DowntroddenDad; 06-17-2014, 09:19 AM. Reason: clarification

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DowntroddenDad View Post
            If all the shares were acquired prior to marriage, it is a premarital asset. Period, full stop. If the value was higher on the marriage date than the separation date (inevitable if its Nortel stock), then it is a loss. You should though, insist on seeing the documentation. Stock price on the day of the wedding and on the day of separation is easy to get, all you need ot know is how many shares were involved.

            Your pension is split based on the time together.

            I wouldn't spend any time or money fighting this, it is the way it is.
            Have you applied for a pension evaluation from your pension yet (There are new laws on this)

            When you apply they ask for the date of marriage and the date of separation.

            They then value the pension on both days and assess the amount of increase between the two date.

            Value on Date of Marriage $65,000
            Value on date of Separation $156,000

            amount to be split $91,000

            Comment


            • #7
              She needs reasonable proof of her stocks and their value at time of marriage and now.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by billm View Post
                She needs reasonable proof of her stocks and their value at time of marriage and now.
                Because they are publicly traded, it should be relatively easy to value if you know how many.

                Unfortunately if they were bought in the employee purchase plan, you didn't buy shares outright, you bought shares in a fund made up of Nortel shares. I too had a hard time getting this information. Nortel is gone, there is no HR office to call. One can assume the value was pretty much zero at the end, but of course it depends when the marriage ended.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by thefunone View Post
                  Ex has claimed Nortel shares (for which she had no documentation -yet claimed she had 35K - and are now worth nothing) she owned on the date of marriage are a pre-marital asset that were destined to be her retirement fund.
                  She was allowed (by our Arbitrator to put those as a pre-marital asset - however in the same breath the Arbitrator indicated that I could not include my gov't pension accrued to that date as a pre-marital asset.
                  I'm trying to understand the difference as both myself and my lawyer are confounded by the decision.
                  I have searched the forums for a similar topic but can't seem to find one.

                  Anyone?
                  I'd be very concerned about an arbitrator who doesn't understand equalization and was favouring one spouse over the other like this! If this decision is a done deal, I would definitely be considering an appeal, as this is a blatant error in law.

                  First, you need documentation for every asset and debt you are claiming. If she can't PROVE with paperwork that she had these Nortel shares at that value on the date of marriage, then they should not be included. However, if you were aware of her having them, or she could reasonably have had them (ie, she worked for Nortel), then you might magnanimously not require the absolute proof as part of the negotiation.

                  Second, the portion of your pension that gets divided is only the increase over the course of the marriage, as previous posters have confirmed. Your pension administrator should be able to provide you with the documentation you need to PROVE this divisible value.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To answer some questions:
                    Yes my pension was valuated - there was an increase in excess of 300K from date of marriage to date of separation. I realize that she is entitled to a portion of that...and not arguing that.

                    She has no documentation stating the number of shares she owned on the date of marriage. She did calculations in her head - came up with a number - then pro rated it to the highest share price Nortel came to...
                    I understand that if the shoe was on the other foot - and her shares were now worth 600K - I would be seeking a portion of that...however that was not the issue.

                    If 'she' is allowed to claim her Nortel values at their highest point and not the value they were on the date of marriage...and that she has claimed that that was her pension...WHY can't I do the same? If my pension (at its highest point could be worth 600K)...perhaps i should shoul be claiming that then as well...I just think it should be apples to apples...not apples for her and oranges for me.

                    Thanks everyone for their previous input.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by thefunone View Post
                      To answer some questions:
                      Yes my pension was valuated - there was an increase in excess of 300K from date of marriage to date of separation. I realize that she is entitled to a portion of that...and not arguing that.

                      She has no documentation stating the number of shares she owned on the date of marriage. She did calculations in her head - came up with a number - then pro rated it to the highest share price Nortel came to...
                      I understand that if the shoe was on the other foot - and her shares were now worth 600K - I would be seeking a portion of that...however that was not the issue.

                      If 'she' is allowed to claim her Nortel values at their highest point and not the value they were on the date of marriage...and that she has claimed that that was her pension...WHY can't I do the same? If my pension (at its highest point could be worth 600K)...perhaps i should shoul be claiming that then as well...I just think it should be apples to apples...not apples for her and oranges for me.

                      Thanks everyone for their previous input.
                      The problem is your pension admin is the one that values it. You can't really argue it as there are now more strict laws on how this is done.

                      You could certainly state that you need documented proof of the number of shares owned on <date of Marriage>

                      If you give me the date of marriage I can get you the stock price from that day

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [QUOTE=thefunone;173753]To answer some questions:

                        She has no documentation stating the number of shares she owned on the date of marriage. She did calculations in her head - came up with a number - then pro rated it to the highest share price Nortel came to. [/]

                        If she has no documentation - then her guesses as to how many shares she owned and what their value was is just fantasy. Unless you both agree to a value for her shares on the date of marriage and the date of separation, I think she's out of luck here. And maybe you need to find another mediator who will understand that she can't just invent losses to boost her side of the equalization.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have all the prices quotes for the days in question - but she could not provide any documentation - other than her guesstimation as to the number of shares she owned.
                          Her NOAs for the years (5mths ..then 6 mths - she started with Nortel in Aug - then we got married the following June) - show that she has a RPP deduction of about 1200.00 (there is also a contributing 6% from Nortel).
                          In 9 mths (they do not offer shares until you had worked there a couple of months) - she is trying to say she amassed 34K in shares....again - with NO documentation(her salary was only 40K)...am leaning more and more to appealing this outrageous decision.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            can't invent losses??? Depends I guess if she came across as convincing enough - our argument was that she had no documentation to support her claim.
                            ...and I lost that one.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Nortel shares

                              On the marriage date, those shares had a value. Whatever that value was forms part of the marriage date value. The higher this value, the lower her net family property will be.

                              The onus of proving the value is on her.

                              Citation: CanLII - Family Law Act, RSO 1990, c F.3

                              Re: pension

                              The pension will have a family law value that takes into consideration the portion of the pension earned during the marriage. This is not the same as the total value of the pension on the marriage date and on the separation date, for complicated reasons that need not be discussed. Get an actuary, get your family law value, use the number.

                              Comment

                              Our Divorce Forums
                              Forums dedicated to helping people all across Canada get through the separation and divorce process, with discussions about legal issues, parenting issues, financial issues and more.
                              Working...
                              X