Private School

[helenj]

Hi all

My ex was seeking to have me pay private school costs. Luckily, the trial Judge didn't think so. Nevertheless, the ex has continued enrolling the kids in an expensive private school and they are not even in middle school yet.

My question is: If I get a higher paying job, can she take me back to court to pay for private school? What do I need to watch out for to ensure I don't' have to pay for private school in the future?

I am already paying child support and looking to get another job to support myself but don't want to give it all up if there is a remote possibility of paying private school.

[rockscan]

Did the judge give a set reason why they said no? That may give you a good idea.

[Tayken]

No. If the kids have not attended "private school" prior to your separation a court will not order the children to attend private school and you pay. I have seen hundreds of high-profile and high-income earners go through this round of nonsense and not once has a court forced a family, who has never used private school, to use it.

Unless you are barred from custody decisions you simply call the private school and tell them you explicitly do not consent to the children attending the school. The school will move on. Private schools DO NOT want to get involved in family law disputes. Nor do they want to have to have their lawyer (which is $$$) talk to you or your lawyer.

They are about profit and there is no profit in a legal dispute... the lawyers are soaking up all the money and they know this an never get involved.

[helenj]

Thank you for your response!

She has sole decision making. She is to consult me but she makes the final decision.

I told her that I do not consent to private school but she still went ahead and signed them up for private school

I did not tell that to the private school that I do not consent and the kids are already attending.

Any further thoughts?


Thanks again!

[rockscan]

There’s three things here…

1. Judges work the government. The government run schools. A judge is not going to say one school is better than the one his boss runs.

2. Sole decision making is not the same as decisions on section 7. Your agreement/order should have an item specifically about section 7. It would not say she has the ability to do it without your approval. Otherwise she would have free run of any and all activities.

3. If you make more money your support goes up. So you should keep that in mind.

[helenj]

I ended up emailing my old lawyer and for those curious here is his response (edited to remove identities)

"As it concerns private school: there are no guarantees in life, but I doubt you would have to pay it unless you consent to it in the future. I say this for a couple reasons: (i) even cases with high income earners, the earner is not presumptively obligated to pay. The reasonableness threshold is (usually) met by their income, but the necessity threshold is usually missed (as it is rare that private school addresses a special need of a child that is not available in public school). It helps that the Judge found that necessity was not met and so private school was not a section 7 expense. "

[iona6656]

what if- for the sake of argument- you have a kid with special needs- say they are incredibly smart- gifted; confirmed by intellectual assessment by accredited psychologists.

What if there is a private school with an IB program or STEM program that meets the needs of the individual kid better than public school- and it's in their report that enhanced curriculum is required.

What if?

This is my kid- I'm keeping her in public school and using the IEP program....but there is a question out there whether a private montessori program might be better at meeting her needs. And both parents are relatively high income earners. I wouldn't take her dad back to court- but it is a discussion we've had with our co-parent counsellor. Her dad, in general, doesn't "believe" in the gifted program. Whatever that means. But the public school board seems to be phasing out gifted classrooms anyways. (it's stupid- in the name of "equity").

I'm just curious as to how you all think this would play out.

[helenj]

Hi,
At the end of the day, there are 2 tests that must be met:
1. Reasonableness - You claim you both make very good income, so let's assume you get passed this hurdle.

2. Necessity - Does the judge believe that the child's special needs can be better met with private school? If not, you won't pass this hurdle. From what you're describing, it doesn't sound like you will pass this hurdle because your child seems very smart. "Special needs" is usually for "developmentally challenged", not "Super smart".

On another point, I will suggest the following. There are a ton of Free YouTube courses/Online universities. Why not get your child to educate themselves for Free? They can start getting certifications now and when they're high school get a $100k Programming/IT job. Some thought starters:
1. cloud/AWS
2. SQL/CSS/HTML/Javascript/JSON

[iona6656]

First I would say there's a difference by what is normally understood as "special needs" i.e. developmentally challenged vs "gifted" i.e. developmentally advanced.

My understand is that it would be easier to prove the case for the former (special needs).

For gifted, has the child actually been tested as "gifted" by the school board specifically ... in which case they would be eligible for public (free) schools with "gifts/enhanced" programs which I believe are different from the IEP program that you mentioned.

I would argue that "special needs" is "special needs"- regardless of whether the child is developmentally advanced or developmentally challenged. They require different programming- which can sometimes not be accommodated in public school. For example, gifted programming does not take place in the Public School Board in my area until Grade 3.

And yes- the child has been tested (I paid for it). The psychology centre I used uses the same standardized tests. Also- they are a contractor for the school board in our area- so they are recognized.

I've already started the ball rolling on the IEP programming. And the gifted/enhanced program ONLY uses the IEP programming for gifted kids younger than the 3rd grade. They've moved away from streaming kids into separate classrooms- again in the name of equity. But really- it's probably expensive to run and separate gifted classrooms and schools for a public school board. THIS is why there is such a high demand for french immersion- because frankly speaking- only the smarter kids can hang in FI through the upper grades; it's kind of a way to get your kid a pseudo-private education.

I made the case for Montessori ($$) too with both parents being higher-income and children being advanced .. lawyer explained it as next too impossible in happened (and this was with the children already having experience with Montessori at a younger age). Judges will default to public system, especially if gifted programs exist there too.

See- whereas my lawyer said the opposite. If Montessori was the standard before separation- then kid(s) should have the benefit of enjoying the same standard of education post-separation.

[Tayken]

what if- for the sake of argument- you have a kid with special needs- say they are incredibly smart- gifted; confirmed by intellectual assessment by accredited psychologists.

What if there is a private school with an IB program or STEM program that meets the needs of the individual kid better than public school- and it's in their report that enhanced curriculum is required.

What if?

This is my kid- I'm keeping her in public school and using the IEP program....but there is a question out there whether a private montessori program might be better at meeting her needs. And both parents are relatively high income earners. I wouldn't take her dad back to court- but it is a discussion we've had with our co-parent counsellor. Her dad, in general, doesn't "believe" in the gifted program. Whatever that means. But the public school board seems to be phasing out gifted classrooms anyways. (it's stupid- in the name of "equity").

I'm just curious as to how you all think this would play out.

Depends on the school board options.

This argument will fail in Peel District and Toronto school boards. Why? They have:

1. IB programs for free.
2. STEM programs like the International Business and Technology and Science and Technology, Gifted and other excellent programs even in specialty sports.
3. All private educational facilities follow the Ontario programs anyways. They don't "enrich" much to be frank. Its just a collecting point for rich kids to hang out with other rich kids.

In fact, the two districts are not decreasing these programs and are actually increasing them and expanding them.

Private school in Ontario is really not necessary. Just because someone went to St. Mikes doesn't make them any more qualified for university entrance. In my personal experience private school kids struggle in University... They enter the 300 person lecture hall for Calc. I and don't know how to survive. They don't get the special attention they used to get... Most can't even cook their own meals.

Universities are hell for "private school" kids I find.

[Tayken]

I've already started the ball rolling on the IEP programming. And the gifted/enhanced program ONLY uses the IEP programming for gifted kids younger than the 3rd grade. They've moved away from streaming kids into separate classrooms- again in the name of equity. But really- it's probably expensive to run and separate gifted classrooms and schools for a public school board. THIS is why there is such a high demand for french immersion- because frankly speaking- only the smarter kids can hang in FI through the upper grades; it's kind of a way to get your kid a pseudo-private education.

Streaming starts in middle school in the public systems in Peel and Toronto. I can't speak to the Catholic system as it should be abolished in Ontario.

Peel Public starts the streams in Grade 6.

As an example here is the info page on the IBT program in Peel:

https://www2.peelschools.org/schools...s/default.aspx

Private education is worthless. Everyone works in a public setting. Your employer doesn't separate the wealthy from the poor. Nor should our school system.