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General Chat This forum is for discussing anything that doesn't fit into another forum, or for discussing things that are off topic, or just for general venting.

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  #11  
Old 04-11-2018, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
Also? That last part is frightening. Is there a dowry involved?! Why would you say that?

For a variety of reasons, I'm fairly confident that my son will be a high-earning individual. Anyone he marries will likely be lower earning than him, likely substantially so.


Marriage could expose him to some serious financial losses. At the very least, I'm going to see if I can convince him to put his house half in my name, so that any wife could at most steal 25%. Ditto for any large investments. Won't save him from SS, but at least he can preserve some of his capital.


My daughters will do fine as well, but courts rarely take money from women, so I'm not too worried. They can marry as they see fit. If they are lucky maybe they can marry rich and take some loot if it falls apart.


Side point: If this involved dowries, presumably I would want my son married and not my daughters...
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  #12  
Old 04-11-2018, 10:14 AM
rockscan rockscan is offline
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You could also teach your kids to make smart choices. To not fall for a charade of love and desire. To really see and understand their partner before marrying them. Hey maybe even live together (in a rental) before engagements to see what it is like to live with someone.

From my experience watching my siblings and friends and also my relationship and his past relationship, a lot of the problems people have relate to their inability to BE partners. One inevitably has some sort of resentment, one tries to control the other, one cheats or is abusive, or they married too young and as they grew they ended up different.
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  #13  
Old 04-11-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
You could also teach your kids to make smart choices.

That's right wing thinking. Good people attain success through good actions, bad people attain crapiness through bad actions. I believe that luck plays a stronger role in our lives than most of us are willing to accept.


Obviously I will try to teach my kids to make smart choices. Divorce sucks. However, plan B is that I arrange affairs such that my son doesn't get wrecked in the event that he gets divorced.
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  #14  
Old 04-11-2018, 12:20 PM
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Be careful though. My mom taught my brother how awful women have it with marriage and divorce and he’s kind of whipped in his relationship.
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:56 AM
ensorcelled ensorcelled is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janus View Post
For a variety of reasons, I'm fairly confident that my son will be a high-earning individual. Anyone he marries will likely be lower earning than him, likely substantially so.


Marriage could expose him to some serious financial losses. At the very least, I'm going to see if I can convince him to put his house half in my name, so that any wife could at most steal 25%. Ditto for any large investments. Won't save him from SS, but at least he can preserve some of his capital.


My daughters will do fine as well, but courts rarely take money from women, so I'm not too worried. They can marry as they see fit. If they are lucky maybe they can marry rich and take some loot if it falls apart.


Side point: If this involved dowries, presumably I would want my son married and not my daughters...
1- Not true at all. High income earners tend to marry in their income bracket. It's once they have kids that high income earning women drop out substantially out of the work force (or lean back). This is the same in everywhere, even Scandinavia.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/u...s-pay-gap.html

Unless your son is actively looking for a partner with low income, he likely will not marry or make babies with someone who is.

****

2- Again, no. Men who are married make more money than men who are not.

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploa...-Final_Web.pdf

******

3-I would encourage my hypothetical daughter to work as hard as she can, keep her skills as relevant as possible, keep a foot in the workforce when she decides to have children and not to bank on a man's money in any context (he could die, he could lose his job, or end up being Charlie Rose).

Actively telling your daughters to 'marry up' reinforces sexist tropes we are trying (desperately) to overcome, on this forum and elsewhere.
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2018, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
It's once they have kids that high income earning women drop out substantially out of the work force (or lean back).

Point being, my son will probably be out-earning his partner. As long as women think it is reasonable to "lean back", men should be avoiding marriage.


I would have loved to "lean back". It's nice for women that they get the option of leaning back, not so nice for the men who are married to them and subsequently divorced.


Quote:
2- Again, no. Men who are married make more money than men who are not.
The proper comparison is between divorced and single men, with appropriate controls for socio-economic factors.



Of course married people tend to do better than unmarried people. Is a study actually needed to confirm the obvious?



Quote:
3-I would encourage my hypothetical daughter to work as hard as she can, keep her skills as relevant as possible, keep a foot in the workforce when she decides to have children and not to bank on a man's money in any context (he could die, he could lose his job, or end up being Charlie Rose).
What does any of this have to do with marriage? The question was, should women get married? Since marriage only helps women, then the answer is that yes they should. This is true regardless of whether they "lean back" or keep going. At worst, marriage is neutral for women.

Quote:
Actively telling your daughters to 'marry up' reinforces sexist tropes we are trying (desperately) to overcome, on this forum and elsewhere.
Hopefully my daughters will be independent. However, they risk nothing by marrying, so they might as well.


My son, on the other hand, risks a lot by marrying, therefore he should not.


Most women on this forum would happily remarry. (The couple who wouldn't will likely chirp up now but that's not conclusive). There's a reason for that. Women can have a shitty relationship, but the crappy part comes from the relationship, not the marriage.


To reiterate, yet again.


The MARRIAGE part of marriage is bad for men. It creates obligations for men, and rights for women. It is likely good for men to be in a relationship, but the marriage part of the relationship is not a good thing.


Of course, we all know this is true. That's why women are so keen to marry, and men are labeled as phobic of commitment. Deep down, women know that marriage is an awesome deal, legally speaking. Deep down, men know that marriage sucks for them, legally speaking.


Women should insist on marriage. Just like I insisted on a contract at my place of employment. The contract mostly helps me, not my employer. The marriage contract mostly helps women, not men. If my son can get out of signing such a one-way contract, good for him! If my daughters choose not to take advantage of this one-way contract, that's a mistake.


For women, there is a strong case for marriage. For men, there is a strong case to avoid marriage, if the woman will allow it. When men start receiving substantial levels of spousal support, we'll revisit the topic.
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  #17  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:43 PM
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This is like the tomato company encouraging you to eat ketchup. She's a divorce lawyer in Quebec. Without marriage there is no alimony here. Nobody other than immigrants gets married in Quebec, it's considered lunacy.

The number one factor indicating a man's marriageability is income everything else is a corollary of that.
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  #18  
Old 04-16-2018, 11:09 AM
ifonlyihadknown ifonlyihadknown is offline
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If my son ever talks about getting married this is what I will tell him what Janus wrote:

"The MARRIAGE part of marriage is bad for men. It creates obligations for men, and rights for women. It is likely good for men to be in a relationship, but the marriage part of the relationship is not a good thing."

As the average man, marriage is the #1 financial risk you can take in your life. You're committed to take care of someone who can leave at any time, for any reason, and you will have to pay. The amount you have to pay only increases with time until it becomes "indefinite". Having kids, which is likely to happen, only increases the financial risk. Your chances are loosing is about 50%. It's financial Russian Roulette with bullets in 3 chambers.
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  #19  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ifonlyihadknown View Post
If my son ever talks about getting married this is what I will tell him what Janus wrote:

"The MARRIAGE part of marriage is bad for men. It creates obligations for men, and rights for women. It is likely good for men to be in a relationship, but the marriage part of the relationship is not a good thing."

As the average man, marriage is the #1 financial risk you can take in your life. You're committed to take care of someone who can leave at any time, for any reason, and you will have to pay. The amount you have to pay only increases with time until it becomes "indefinite". Having kids, which is likely to happen, only increases the financial risk. Your chances are loosing is about 50%. It's financial Russian Roulette with bullets in 3 chambers.
This was debunked upthread. Men overwhelmingly make out better in divorce than women do - especially over a long stretch of time. They are more likely to remarry (so added income) and spousal support is almost non-exsistent over long term anymore. Child support is minimal, especially in 50% care giving.
On top of that, men who marry and stay married live longer, have more frequent sex, have healthy social circles and long-term friendships and (this is the BEST) are more likely to cheat and NOT have their partners leave them.
It really is a man's world...

I obviously don't know the specifics of your case, but as a woman paying child support to her Ex (along with all the extracurriculars and S 7 stuff), I would do it again with the right person, but consider how badly I got it wrong the first time it should be no surprise that I am hesitant!
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  #20  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Links17 View Post
This is like the tomato company encouraging you to eat ketchup. She's a divorce lawyer in Quebec. Without marriage there is no alimony here. Nobody other than immigrants gets married in Quebec, it's considered lunacy.

The number one factor indicating a man's marriageability is income everything else is a corollary of that.
She addresses this in the interview. Did you listen?

She's now doing a Judge Judy type show in Québec and isn't doing much bread and butter divorces in her office anymore.
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