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  • Newly self representing, Questions about word changes in final order

    I have been lurking here for a few months just leaning about things.
    We have shared parenting and joint custody. The standard of living is way better and higher for the children even though I try to shield then from the difference. We have a signed agreement for child sharing and parenting plan but no agreement on finacials. I pay full table amount to her.

    I recently ran out of funds and got laid off from my job so I had to fire my lawyer. (FWIW - I also I do not think she ever put a good effort into listening to my case. Just whent threw the motions (literally, I guess ) and collected retainer after retainer.)
    So I filled out the paper work and served both lawyers and filed the required documents with the courthouse.

    A few days later I get a letter and documents from her lawyer for me to sign giving consent to turn our parenting agreement into a Final order. There have been some wording changes in the new version. Specifically in regards to pickup and drop off the word "parents" have been replaced with the word "Parties" - is this to give her flexibility so that others instead of her can pick them up. Other changes are our names replaced with respondant and applicant. She is a very busy business woman who's main priority is her and her career. The lawyer gave me 4 days to sign or she will go to court and start a motion for the final order and make be pay her costs.

    I feel that 4 days is not alot of time for me to figure out why she changed those words and if that is allowed. Can I ask for more time? Is the lawyer being reasonable or is she taking advanmtage of the fact that I have no lawyer?

    Also there have been changes and if possible I would like to change some issues in the parenting agreement. Mainly transportation; my pickups have changed from a 5min walk round trip to a 1 hour drive round trip. Also would like to change a weekday after school evening and dinner to an overnight. Is there any reasonable posibility of changing that? The move was for her to get closer to her existing work and now the kids were moved out of there neighbourhood and school too. She mentioned that she was looking to move when the agreement was signed less than 3 months ago but at the time no house was purchased so I didn't know if she was serious. My ex-lawyer said I could not stop the kids from changing schools because I had less that 50%. I have since discovered I have around 43%using information I learned here)

    There is no court order or agreement for finacials. But I have been paying full table amounts to her even though I now know that I have always had the kids over 40% of the time counting just the overnights when including
    Holidays, vacation and P.A days. What do I have to do to reduce CS and ever get some retro back to pay off my climbing debts.

    Thanks for reading my long introductory "help me email" Any thoughts on my issues?

    1. What to do about the 4 days and the changed wording in the Final order consent.

    2. Money is a huge problem for me right now. WHat can I do to get offest CS.

    3. I would love to have a lawyer an a consultation basis but my old lawyer is not interested. Where can I get legal advice?

    4. the parneting agreement requies that we use a parenting co-ordinator to resolve disputs but I can pay their retainer and being self representing the courts seem like be more cost effect approach right now ironically.


    thanks for your time, and I hope to learn enough to contribute to this forum.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Paulzinho View Post
    Specifically in regards to pickup and drop off the word "parents" have been replaced with the word "Parties" - is this to give her flexibility so that others instead of her can pick them up.
    It may be, but it is more likely to track wording provided by courts. Same goes with the "respondant and applicant", which are what each party is named in a court action.

    I don't think those changes would be in any way material. Unless there is wording providing that you pay full c/s and not an offset amount or they are in some way reducing your time or rights to your kids, I don't thin it is worth making a fuss over.

    I feel that 4 days is not alot of time for me to figure out why she changed those words and if that is allowed. Can I ask for more time? Is the lawyer being reasonable or is she taking advanmtage of the fact that I have no lawyer?
    Her lawyer isn't being overly reasonable given your current situation. However, they are the otherside and have no real obligation to be reasonable.

    If you have any questions on procedure and stuff, I would go to my local court house and see if they have a Family Law Information Centre (FLIC) or call to see when they have family law duty counsel available. Both are free.

    Also there have been changes and if possible I would like to change some issues in the parenting agreement. Mainly transportation; my pickups have changed from a 5min walk round trip to a 1 hour drive round trip. Also would like to change a weekday after school evening and dinner to an overnight. Is there any reasonable posibility of changing that?
    That should have been negotiated when the agreement was being peiced together. The second she said she was going to move, you should have said "Sure you can move, but not with the kids. This is where they grew up and where their school and friends are." From there, you either a) use that position to get primary custody of the kids or b) use the position to get more time with the kids and then share driving/expenses caused by her move.

    My ex-lawyer said I could not stop the kids from changing schools because I had less that 50%.
    Of course your ex's lawyer will say that, because it is in their clients best interests. What you need to learn is that you should not be taking legal advice from your ex or her lawyer. If her lawyer said that, I would say "ok, I will need to confirm this with my lawyer or through duty counsel" and then determined that, while you MAY NOT be able to stop the change, you can seriously delay her move as if she moved with the children without your consent, it would look bad in court.

    There is no court order or agreement for finacials. But I have been paying full table amounts to her even though I now know that I have always had the kids over 40% of the time counting just the overnights when including
    After the agreement is signed (or if is has been signed) I would send the ex a registered letter stating that as you have the children over 40% of the time, you will be paying c/s based off of the offset amount in accordance with the Child Support Guidelines. You could then request that she provide you with her financials. And by the sounds of it, she is making more then you, so you would be entitled to RECEIVE c/s, not pay.

    1. What to do about the 4 days and the changed wording in the Final order consent.
    You would have to go to court.

    2. Money is a huge problem for me right now. WHat can I do to get offest CS.
    Send a letter stating you are paying X based off of the guidelines and your current income and the provisions relating to the offset in shared parenting arrangements. If she doesn't like this, she would have to take you to court and have the court decide that it is right to go against the guidelines for offset when she makes more etc etc...

    3. I would love to have a lawyer an a consultation basis but my old lawyer is not interested. Where can I get legal advice?
    There Family Law Information Centres throughout Ontario you can use as a resource which are free. If you don't live by one, call you local court house and see when Duty Counsel for family law is in.

    4. the parneting agreement requies that we use a parenting co-ordinator to resolve disputs but I can pay their retainer and being self representing the courts seem like be more cost effect approach right now ironically.
    Go with what the agreement provides. The courts don't take kindly to people that go against their agreements and skip directly to litigating. While you may not have to pay your own legal fees, if you start upsetting the court by not trying to work with your ex via mediation/coordinators, you may have to pay her legal fees.

    Comment


    • #3
      Don't wait until after the agreement is signed to reduce CS. You need to the offset amount of CS into the agreement NOW, otherwise you will have a helluva time trying to change it afterward.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dadtotheend View Post
        Don't wait until after the agreement is signed to reduce CS. You need to the offset amount of CS into the agreement NOW, otherwise you will have a helluva time trying to change it afterward.
        Why? If the agreement does not provide that he will pay full c/s, then the law/guidelines would prevail as to the standard would they not?

        The guidelines provide that in share custody scenarios, c/s is based on the offset amount. I personally would wait until shared custody is in writing, so the other side then doesn't change their mind on shared and try to force something else. If you have it in writiing, they must now go to court to change the agreement and/or contest that the guidelines shouldn't be used in this scenario.

        Comment


        • #5
          The final order will deal with CS as well. If full table amount is written in, then he's pooched.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi gues thanks for you input. I am listening to your discussion with great interest. Right now is no signed agreement for child support amounts just a few emails. between me an the ex.

            There is a signed agreement for the the parenting plan nothing about CS amounts. Should I wait untill it becomes a court order.

            Just to be clear. The amount of days including sleep overs in a "normal" 2 week period is below 40%. But as per status quo and the agreement when I add the vacation, holiday and P.A. overnights then I am over 40%. Does that still count?

            Thanks for your opinions!
            I look forward to hearing more.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dadtotheend View Post
              The final order will deal with CS as well. If full table amount is written in, then he's pooched.
              Stange but right now her lawer is looking to get just the stuff we agree on into this "final" order. There is only the parenting plan with the word changes.

              The finacial parts including retro will problable end up in court. There is a trail management conference setup for a month from now and a trial date a month after.

              thanks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paulzinho View Post
                Just to be clear. The amount of days including sleep overs in a "normal" 2 week period is below 40%. But as per status quo and the agreement when I add the vacation, holiday and P.A. overnights then I am over 40%. Does that still count?
                I am not sure on this. I would believe that if you have over 40% of the overnights in a year pursuant to your agreement (notwithstanding how you obtained each night, just that you have them) you would be entitled to the offset amount.

                So if you agreement is worded that you are entitled to over 40% of the overnights in a year, it would be hard to argue that you are not entitled to go by the offset amount. However, I do believe it would have to be a consistant measure of over 40%. Not just in odd years where weekends and long weekends conveniently land in such a way that you get over 40%.

                In your current situation, with c/s not being provided for in the agrement, I would do the math on overnights, and if the agreement provides that you are over 40% you have two choices:

                a) see the final order, if it still doesn't provide for c/s, wait until the ink dries and state that pursuant to custody schedule provided for in your final order, you are over 40% and are going by the setoff amount

                b) work on getting the setoff amount inserted into the final order as you've done the math on overnights and according to what you each have previously agreed to in writing, you are entitled to over 40% of the overnights.

                b tips your hand to the otherside and may cause a battle as she will now want to reduce your time to under 40%, or come up with math that refutes your findings.

                "A" is a little more sneaky, but puts the onus on her to find math that disagrees with what you've determined and then you would have to work with her from there. Or if she also finds that you are over 40%, she would have to go to court and have a court order you pay more then what the guidelines provide or reduce your time, both of which you fight tooth and nail.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paulzinho View Post
                  Stange but right now her lawer is looking to get just the stuff we agree on into this "final" order. There is only the parenting plan with the word changes.

                  The finacial parts including retro will problable end up in court. There is a trail management conference setup for a month from now and a trial date a month after.

                  thanks.

                  If you are dealing with c/s and financials later and your agreement provides you have over 40% now, you have a strong argument when the c/s conversation rolls around.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                    ...So if you agreement is worded that you are entitled to over 40% of the overnights in a year, it would be hard to argue that you are not entitled to go by the offset amount. However, I do believe it would have to be a consistant measure of over 40%. Not just in odd years where weekends and long weekends conveniently land in such a way that you get over 40%...
                    Yes over the last three years consistently I am above the 40% as specified in the agreement.

                    Should I make waves about the wording/changess or forget about it and get it into a court order ASAP?

                    thank you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paulzinho View Post
                      Yes over the last three years consistently I am above the 40% as specified in the agreement.

                      Should I make waves about the wording/changess or forget about it and get it into a court order ASAP?

                      thank you.
                      That's not something I can decide for you. Personally, I would speak to duty counsel or a lawyer from the FLIC office before making any determinations like this. There are pro's and con's to both, and ultimately, this is your decision.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So your status quo gives you in excess of 40% time /year with the kids and that is the only thing that is being asked to be written into a final order at this time?

                        Gut says go for it...though you can't have a final order without 3 things being dealt with...custody/access and support.

                        Perhaps send the lawyer an email agreeing to the stated parenting plan as final..but indicate that the CS component needs to be addressed before you can agree to a "final order".

                        Who currently collects teh CCTB?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If CCTB means Child Credit Tax benifit she did last year.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If you are at around the margin on 40% the devil's advocate cynic in me hears alarms ringing whereby they are trying to corral you into a final order parenting plan and then hammer you with the full table amount of CS once the parenting plan is final because they invent an argument that will put you at less than 40%.

                            BEWARE!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              File for the Child Tax Benefit using your status quo of 40%/year....if CRA grants it to you, you can pull that out in court and attempt to hammer that argument away.

                              Any time you sit at the border like that....be cautious. DTTE is correct, they could be setting you up for a fall....if you can ratify the status quo, you CAN file that with CRA...otherwise you'll need supporting documentation.

                              Comment

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