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At what point do s7 expenses become part of c/s?

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  • At what point do s7 expenses become part of c/s?

    OK, I am normally pretty good at figuring out things, but this is one that I have been questioning for some time.

    Background:

    My ex and I make the virtually the same amount ~$65k. She may make a touch more then me, but we've never exchanged NOA's, so I am not sure how much. It's never really been an issue for me. I am honest to my ex about my income and let her know of all raises as soon as I get them and adjust c/s accordingly.

    I pay almost $600 a month in c/s.

    D7 is in competitive dance which costs $200 per month, plus extras like 3 pairs of shoes, a mandatory jacket, tourney fees etc.

    My ex requests reimbursement on all things dance related. The mandatory jacket was $120, my half is $60. Tourney fees were $126, I pay $63. Shoes, tights, body suits etc all came to over $200.

    IMO, the monthly $200, the tourney fees and costumes would all be s7, as they add up. But a one time fee for the jacket, likely isn't, but in order to help maintain the peace, I pay.

    I may be in line for a new job. This job will pay $80k+. My c/s will jump from just under $600 to over $725 (for 1 child). Our combined incomes will be close to $150k. I figure at that level things like the jacket, clothes etc would be covered under c/s (but not the $100 monthly fee or costumes).

    My ex normally does all the shopping at one time and gives me a bill for my half at around $200, which I pay. But if I get the new job, I feel like c/s would likely be enough to cover these odd expenses even if they are a couple hundred $$.

    Thoughts? Opinions?

  • #2
    I don't think any of the expenses are section 7. They are not 'extraordinary' considering your combined incomes, and assuming that the child does not do many other activities that cost money.

    Go read section 7 for yourself.

    Lots and lots and lots of people confuse 'extraordinary' with 'extracurricular'. They are not the same. Extracurricular is not necessarily S7.

    Do you think family law would set up a system where the CP has to get the NCP to pay for all the extracirricular expenses such as school trips and dance lessons? No. The idea is that you pay CS and you are done. If you want to spend a lot of money on a child for things that other parents at your income level may not, that is when it becomes extraordinary, and possibly S7, and your choice.

    CS covers all expenses to raise in the child in accordance with your income levels. Medical and dental expenses over $100 are S7, otherwise S7 have to be 'extraordinary'.

    Nothing extraordinary about the costs you mention when combined CS is about $1200/month of after tax dollars.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
      OK, I am normally pretty good at figuring out things, but this is one that I have been questioning for some time.

      Background:

      My ex and I make the virtually the same amount ~$65k. She may make a touch more then me, but we've never exchanged NOA's, so I am not sure how much. It's never really been an issue for me. I am honest to my ex about my income and let her know of all raises as soon as I get them and adjust c/s accordingly.

      I pay almost $600 a month in c/s.

      D7 is in competitive dance which costs $200 per month, plus extras like 3 pairs of shoes, a mandatory jacket, tourney fees etc.

      My ex requests reimbursement on all things dance related. The mandatory jacket was $120, my half is $60. Tourney fees were $126, I pay $63. Shoes, tights, body suits etc all came to over $200.

      IMO, the monthly $200, the tourney fees and costumes would all be s7, as they add up. But a one time fee for the jacket, likely isn't, but in order to help maintain the peace, I pay.

      I may be in line for a new job. This job will pay $80k+. My c/s will jump from just under $600 to over $725 (for 1 child). Our combined incomes will be close to $150k. I figure at that level things like the jacket, clothes etc would be covered under c/s (but not the $100 monthly fee or costumes).

      My ex normally does all the shopping at one time and gives me a bill for my half at around $200, which I pay. But if I get the new job, I feel like c/s would likely be enough to cover these odd expenses even if they are a couple hundred $$.

      Thoughts? Opinions?
      well, from what I understand about s7 expenses is't not like they become part of CS at any time. I did not see any relation to that in any material. I meant that why the separate s7 expenses.

      I would think your best bet to request NOA from you ex and do it by book and go from there. But again it look like you manage to doing well with your ex and avoided court (and I think that just because you gave up a lot what I would not ) SO may be she would agree to what you described.

      just IMHO.
      WD

      Comment


      • #4
        I did not see any relation to that in any material.
        The definition of "extra-ordinary expenses" in the FCSG includes consideration of what could reasonably be covered by regular child support.

        If regular child support is $3,000 per month, then martial arts classes of $150 per month are not likely to be extra-ordinary, whereas if the child support being paid was only $300 then the claim that the classes are extra-ordinary becomes stronger.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by billm View Post
          I don't think any of the expenses are section 7. They are not 'extraordinary' considering your combined incomes, and assuming that the child does not do many other activities that cost money.

          Go read section 7 for yourself.

          Lots and lots and lots of people confuse 'extraordinary' with 'extracurricular'. They are not the same. Extracurricular is not necessarily S7.

          Do you think family law would set up a system where the CP has to get the NCP to pay for all the extracirricular expenses such as school trips and dance lessons? No. The idea is that you pay CS and you are done. If you want to spend a lot of money on a child for things that other parents at your income level may not, that is when it becomes extraordinary, and possibly S7, and your choice.

          CS covers all expenses to raise in the child in accordance with your income levels. Medical and dental expenses over $100 are S7, otherwise S7 have to be 'extraordinary'.

          Nothing extraordinary about the costs you mention when combined CS is about $1200/month of after tax dollars.
          I agree, and I've read the sections.

          I don't pay for things like school trips that are like $20, the ex doesn't even ask. Same for D7's pizza days or milk days. They aren't even suggested by the ex.

          Ex has only once ever asked me pay my proportional share of medical/dental expenses, and it was $5.00 because she was mad at me.....I laughed and for $5.00 it wasn't worth the further headache.

          Right now we are getting along and life is generally pretty good. But should I get this new position, my c/s will have increased from being about $520 at the beginning of the year to over $200 more by the end of the year. I feel given that increase, and my ex's income, 90% of these should be c/s. I'd likely still pay the $100 monthly fee, as to totally cease contributing would cause more drama than just stopping the extras.

          I also will also likely pay for costumes, as they will likely total close to $1000 for the 3. D7 is also going to a national dance competition in the US for a week, which costs $2400 for the week (so I will have to pay 1/2 of 1200 - the ex pays for herself).

          Guys, put your kids in soccer...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by OrleansLawyer View Post
            The definition of "extra-ordinary expenses" in the FCSG includes consideration of what could reasonably be covered by regular child support.

            If regular child support is $3,000 per month, then martial arts classes of $150 per month are not likely to be extra-ordinary, whereas if the child support being paid was only $300 then the claim that the classes are extra-ordinary becomes stronger.
            I am always impressed how OrleansLawyer can say so much in so few words and for it to be so relevant.

            Really like the formulaic logic behind this OrleansLawyer... Is there a % of total yearly child support paid (a threshold) that would have to be crossed for it to be worth wile to request as a "S.7" expense.

            Say: CS paid 1000 a month or 12,000 per annum.

            Total yearly "S.7" expenses in this case should exceed % of total child support received (per annum) to even bother seeking before the court?

            Say something like if the total expenses for the "S.7" don't exceed 3, 5, or 10% of total child support paid it isn't worth even asking/requesting?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tayken View Post
              I am always impressed how OrleansLawyer can say so much in so few words and for it to be so relevant.

              Really like the formulaic logic behind this OrleansLawyer... Is there a % of total yearly child support paid (a threshold) that would have to be crossed for it to be worth wile to request as a "S.7" expense.

              Say: CS paid 1000 a month or 12,000 per annum.

              Total yearly "S.7" expenses in this case should exceed % of total child support received (per annum) to even bother seeking before the court?

              Say something like if the total expenses for the "S.7" don't exceed 3, 5, or 10% of total child support paid it isn't worth even asking/requesting?
              Formulas are good, but if your example were true, would support payors demand that the support receiver spend that percentage in extracurricular, else the child is not getting proper care?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by billm View Post
                Formulas are good, but if your example were true, would support payors demand that the support receiver spend that percentage in extracurricular, else the child is not getting proper care?
                Not my expectation but it could be interpreted that way. The better way to possibly look at it is if the support receiver on consent from the other parent pays over X% in total for "S.7" qualified expenses then, the matter could go on application to court. What needs to be put in place possibly to take some of the weight off the courts is some case law with an explicit formula possibly so "pizza day" and 1$ popcorn arguments (exposed in another thread) don't see their way into court ever.

                Comment

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