Ottawa Divorce .com Forums


User CP

New posts

Advertising

  Ottawa Divorce .com Forums > Main Category > Divorce & Family Law

Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-18-2009, 09:14 AM
#1StepMom #1StepMom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 885
#1StepMom is on a distinguished road
Default How to Divide Subsidized Sick Days?

I'm hoping someone here uses this arrangement and can provide feedback.

My stepson is allotted 28 subsidized sick days per year, which means that when he is absent from daycare, no costs are incurred. Should he be absent above the 28 days, the full daily rate of daycare applies.

In the past, daycare costs were split 50/50 between the parties, however my stepson's mom is now refusing to cover 50% of the costs associated with the daycare absences due to vacation time that the child is with my husband and I.

On a judge's suggestion, she is expecting us to distribute the sick days as follows: 8 days for the child when he becomes ill; 10 days to each parent for vacation time.

This is agreeable to my husband, however my stepson's mom is also demanding that should the child require additional sick days above the allotted 8, each parent shall contribute by one-half-day from their allotted 10 days. This may seem fair in theory, but realistically, it is not, as due to holidays and vacations, my stepson is in our care and absent from daycare for 25-30 days each year. Since my husband is allotted only 10 days to use at his discretion, we are still required to cover the full costs ($35 per day) of the remaining 15-20 absences. It is unrealistic to expect him to help cover additional illnesses only to increase the already high cost of his vacation time. We have informed my stepson's mom that if this is the sort of arrangement she wants, we will required doctor's notes for all absences due to illness in order to properly keep track of sick-days and ensure that the child is actually away due to illness and not because his mom used a sick day to cover an absence when the child was not actually ill. She finds this unreasonable and states that since she doesn't have to provide the school or daycare with doctor's notes, she shouldn't have to provide us with them either.

Any suggestions on how to resolve this issue?
  #2  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:28 AM
billm's Avatar
billm billm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,431
billm is on a distinguished road
Default

Is the number of days missed due to holidays/vacations because of the child schedule (the days assigned to you kinda force you to take him out of daycare more than some other schedule)? I don't imagine this is true.

I think the days should be split as per the judges recommendations, which means that the 10 days are owned by you and the 8 days are owned by the child for sick days - if the child uses more than 8 sick days, you are each responsible for half - so you pay half or you give up half of one of your days. I believe this is what the mother wants.

Now if you don't trust each other - saying the child is sick when really you are using it as a vacation day, then that is a problem. Providing a doctors note is not a good idea I think because who wants to live like that, and you don't want to haul the kid to see a doctor just because the parents don't get along! In the end if you can't trust each other then, you can say that you have to be notified the child is sick the morning of the sick day, or else that day is the responsibility of the person the child is with. When notified, you can call the child and verify he is home. You can also state that the child must be at home on the sick day, but you have to be reasonable as some days my kids are sick, by the time the afternoon roles around, we are out at the mall or doing something fun.
  #3  
Old 07-18-2009, 02:18 PM
#1StepMom #1StepMom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 885
#1StepMom is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billm View Post
Is the number of days missed due to holidays/vacations because of the child schedule (the days assigned to you kinda force you to take him out of daycare more than some other schedule)? I don't imagine this is true.
Yes, this is indeed the case. Unfortunately, the court system doesn't have a guideline for this type of senario. Our first judge ordered that ALL daycare fees shall be shared, regardless of how they are incurred. After all, the non-custodial parent has a right to vacation with his child without having to pay additional penalties for the vacation time. However, our second judge suggested that if the custodial parent doesn't want to be financially responsible for the absence fees incurred during the non-custodial parent's vacation time, a splitting of subsidized sick days might be a good idea. Unfortunately, this judge did not specify what would happen should the child require more than the allotted sick days, which is the argument right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billm View Post
I think the days should be split as per the judges recommendations, which means that the 10 days are owned by you and the 8 days are owned by the child for sick days - if the child uses more than 8 sick days, you are each responsible for half - so you pay half or you give up half of one of your days. I believe this is what the mother wants.
Since the child is in the custodial parent's care during most weekdays, it is assumed that she will use the 8-day illness allottment responsibly, and at her discretion. Unfortunately, in the past, there have been instances where she has kept the child home from daycare and used a sick day when the child wasn't in fact ill. We do not want to risk this happening again, and then being informed that all 8 days have been used and that we are now responsible for half of all other absences, on top of 100% of the 15-20 vacation days. You know what I mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billm View Post
Now if you don't trust each other - saying the child is sick when really you are using it as a vacation day, then that is a problem. Providing a doctors note is not a good idea I think because who wants to live like that, and you don't want to haul the kid to see a doctor just because the parents don't get along! In the end if you can't trust each other then, you can say that you have to be notified the child is sick the morning of the sick day, or else that day is the responsibility of the person the child is with. When notified, you can call the child and verify he is home. You can also state that the child must be at home on the sick day, but you have to be reasonable as some days my kids are sick, by the time the afternoon roles around, we are out at the mall or doing something fun.
That's an idea. But the issue still lays in the fact that we are already paying $525-700 in absence fees during the time the child is with us for the court-ordered vacation time. To possibly add another $350 should we need to give up the 10-days allotted to our vacation/discretion seems quite unfair.
  #4  
Old 07-18-2009, 06:18 PM
PhoenixRising PhoenixRising is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 103
PhoenixRising is on a distinguished road
Default

Personally, I do not see why this issue is so difficult. If Mom and Dad are to share the costs equally for daycare. Every month you get the bill. It is 50-50.

Period!!!
  #5  
Old 07-18-2009, 06:57 PM
#1StepMom #1StepMom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 885
#1StepMom is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post
Personally, I do not see why this issue is so difficult. If Mom and Dad are to share the costs equally for daycare. Every month you get the bill. It is 50-50.

Period!!!
Yes, in a perfect world, that would be a no-brainer. But when you're dealing with a person who only demands my husband's and my every penny but isn't willing to provide a penny herself, it's not that easy.

My stepson's mom doesn't think it's fair to her to have to cover 50% of the daycare costs associated with the absences incurred during the time the child in on court-ordered vacation with my husband and I. Yet it's alright with her that we pay 50% of the days that she takes the child out of daycare herself. Funny, isn't it? She brought this up with our latest judge who is the one that over-ruled the previous judge's order that each party shall pay 50% of all daycare fees regardless of why they are incurred, and suggested this ridiculous splitting of subdidized sick days, but didn't specify how exactly it will work and what will happen if the child becomes ill above the allotted sick days and what happens to the costs of the other daycare absences during the time the child is on vacation. Of course, if you ask my stepson's mom how it "works best" she'll tell you that if the child becomes ill and requires additional sick days, they shall be taken from our vacation time allotment, and we will still have to cover the full costs of the remaining daycare absences during our vacation time.

If the above is the case, 4 weeks summer vacation would cost us close to $1,500 (absence fees + regular attendance rate). Not to mention child support, activities, daycamps, and any actual family trips on top of all that.

This just doesn't seem right.
  #6  
Old 07-19-2009, 01:08 PM
#1StepMom #1StepMom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 885
#1StepMom is on a distinguished road
Default

"I do not agree that each of us paying 50% of daycare costs is fair - since I would be facilitating your vacation time."

Really? Isn't it the custodial parent's obligation to help facilitate access and vacation times? We already do all the transportation (full tank of gas each round trip) and cover 50% of all costs plus 100% of all camps/activities during the time the child is with us. On top of an already increased amount of child support.

Any suggestions on how to handle this nonsense?

Last edited by #1StepMom; 07-19-2009 at 01:50 PM.
  #7  
Old 08-27-2009, 12:02 PM
#1StepMom #1StepMom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 885
#1StepMom is on a distinguished road
Default

Hi folks... I unfortunately have to return to this issue, as it has reared its ugly head again. My stepson's mom is threatening legal action if my husband doesn't agree to pay 100% of the daycare costs incurred during his court ordered vacation times, on top of his proportionate share - currently 50% - of all other daycare expenses.

She is demanding to revisit the sharing of subsidized sick days (30 days per year that are free absence days) and is demanding the following: 10 days be allotted to the child for illness; 10 days be allotted to each parent for vacation; if the child requires additional illness days, each parent contributes one half-day from their 10-day vacation allotment.

Seems reasonable, right? Well, my husband is in agreement with such an arrangement provided that the illnesses are documented (ex: doctor's note) - in the past, my stepson's mom has, on numerous occasions, claimed the child was ill when in reality he was not and she had used one of his allotted sick days as an extended long weekend or day-trip - to ensure that the child is actually ill and has truthfully exceeded the 10-day illness allotment, if he is to contribute from his vacation allotment to additional days.

FYI - The child is with my husband and I "on vacation" for a minimum of 30 days per year. It costs $35/day for the child to be absent from daycare during that time. The court order reads that ALL daycare costs, regardless of how they are incurred, are to be shared proportionately. The child's mother thinks this is unfair to her, to have to pay her share of the fees incurred during my husband's court ordered vacation time. We do not have the financial means to incur an additional $750-1000 in daycare fees, on top of all other daycare costs and extraordinary expenses.

Any thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? - We are at our wits' end!
  #8  
Old 08-27-2009, 12:49 PM
billiechic billiechic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vaughan
Posts: 2,371
billiechic is on a distinguished road
Default

THis woman is insane. regardless if the child is sick, daycare has to be paid, right? The arrangement is ridiculous, but if you have to do the 10 days each and half days deducted for illness, then it makes sense that you want a doctor's note.

I really hope this doesn't happen to me...that's horrible.
  #9  
Old 08-27-2009, 02:44 PM
#1StepMom #1StepMom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 885
#1StepMom is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billiechic View Post
THis woman is insane. regardless if the child is sick, daycare has to be paid, right? The arrangement is ridiculous, but if you have to do the 10 days each and half days deducted for illness, then it makes sense that you want a doctor's note.

I really hope this doesn't happen to me...that's horrible.
Let me clarify... the way the daycare costs work... the child's mother is eligible for child care subsidy (for being a young single mother, despite earning $40,000/year) which means that daily daycare rates are reduced and the child is expected to be in attendance full time. If the child is ill, the full daily rate applies for the absence. Given this fact, the government provides 30 subsidized sick days, which means that the child can be ill for a total of 30 days each year without having to incur the full absence rate.

Because my husband is entitled by court order to 50/50 vacations, he takes the child out of daycare (as we live 1.5hrs away without traffic) during that time in order to exercise his court ordered vacation time. This, obviously, drains the subsidized sick day allotment and forces the parents to incur full daily rates for the days the child is absent from daycare. Well, the mother is against this - she clearly said that she "will not facilitate his vacation time." She wants my husband to pay 100% of the costs incurred during his vacation time, plus his proportionate share of all daycare expenses.

We requested a doctor's note for when the child is ill, as assurance that the child is in fact ill and not being taken out of daycare on the mother's whim, which she objected to unless we agree to pay the cost for each doctor's note. We told her we'd split the doctor's notes 50/50 with her - she objected to this as well, as she doesn't feel she should pay for something she isn't requesting. The problem is that she cannot be trusted. She has in the past proven so, and has even coaxed the child into claiming he was ill, when later we learned that they had spent the day at Marineland! Her defense: "He felt better in the afternoon."

If we are to pay extra, and I mean close to $1,000 extra in daycare fees per year, then we need and deserve some sort of assurance that the fees incurred are justified. You know what I mean? And by "we" I mean mostly ME, as my husband lost his job last week (the company went under) and so all the financial obligations (rent, utilities, cars, insurance AND now child support and extraordinary expenses) are now on my shoulders. And yes... child support and extraordinary expenses are now MY problem because, as we learned a year or so ago, when my husband lost his job due to the market crash and economy (he worked in financial services), he was not granted a reduction in child support because the judge claimed the job loss was "temporary" and I had enough of an income to support the both of us while the majority of my husband's EI and savings went to child support. In that court case, because the judge claimed his asking for a reduction was premature (he had been unemployed for 3 months), he was also "charged" with legal costs of the other party in the sum of $2,000 which we are still repaying at $100/month. God, we don't want to go through that AGAIN!

Going back to the issue... what type of arrangement would you consider FAIR in the sharing of subsidized sick days? What type of agreement would you like to come to if you were in our position?
  #10  
Old 08-27-2009, 08:26 PM
Mess Mess is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,448
Mess is a jewel in the roughMess is a jewel in the roughMess is a jewel in the roughMess is a jewel in the rough
Default

The government provides a subsidy for single mothers because they are SINGLE, if they didn't have daycare they wouldn't be able to work, they would either depend on welfare or you would be complaining that you are paying her more support.

We, the taxpayers, are providing subsidized sick days for the child because children get sick. They aren't subsidized vacation days. They aren't subsidized visitation days for non-custodial parents. They aren't subsidized "Let's take the day off and go play in the park days." They are sick days.

The government agency providing the subsidy should very well demand a doctor's note for multiple consecutive days absent from daycare. If the note is not provided they should not provide the sick days.

I'm not saying this to take it out on you, but abusing sick days is fraud, and you are only getting away with it because of lack of resources for management and scrutiny.

You are not paying for the daycare and you are not qualified to receive the subsidy, but you are complaining because you can't take full advantage of it.

The sick days should be reserved for the child's illness. If the child is not ill throughout the year, in December it is still very likely that colds and flu will come up.

If you insist on having use of the sick days, then you should be required to reimburse the charge for the full amount if the child gets ill during the remainder of the year.

Paying for the cost of keeping the daycare space while the child is on vacation is a requirement of the agency providing the subsidy. If they knew that you were using the subsidy this way there would be hell to pay.

The cost of keeping the daycare space open during vacation would be a legitimate section 7 expense, and it should be split according to whatever formula you already use for section 7 expenses. If you split it 50/50, or 20/80, or if one parent pays it all, that is how the vacation time should be covered.

I am not taking sides with either parent here, I am if anything taking sides with the government agency, they provide the subsidy according to a set of rules and you should follow those rules. That is the ethical thing to do. The last thing you should be doing is fighting in court over who gets take advantage of breaking the rules.
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sick During Assigned Visit Spankie111 Parenting Issues 18 02-07-2012 11:48 PM
Counting Days for Service for a Case Conference? representingself Divorce & Family Law 18 10-16-2010 11:02 AM
Sick Days swedishberry Parenting Issues 5 12-08-2009 03:54 PM
Subsidised daycare 4d/wk - absent days allotment dinkyface Divorce & Family Law 3 07-28-2009 03:46 AM
sick kids & time off work... mcr Parenting Issues 1 12-15-2008 01:48 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:42 PM.