Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Good News to have Grandparents

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Good News to have Grandparents

    I came across this recent case [1.]where the central issue was whether it is in the best interests of the 17 month old child to have access to the paternal grandparents on alternate weekends; some other form of access; or not at all. In conclusion the court held three principles for consideration:
    • First, it is generally in the best interests of the child to have some exposure to her extended family;
    • Second, in conflict situations between the parties, the court should examine the reasons why access should be denied. If there are no good reasons, the courts will override the mother’s wishes and order access; and,
    • Third, if the court is to deny access, the conduct of the grandparents must be shown to be extremely destructive and severe.


    In the result

    A graduated alternate weekend access regime for the child over 6 months.

    [1.] Stead v. Puritch, 2006 ONCJ 410, (CanLII), http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/oncj/2006/2006oncj410.html

    lv

  • #2
    This is an interesting case from several viewpoints.

    a) a non-involved parent (the father)
    b) issues regarding extended family access (the grandparents)
    c) using the child against family... basically, you do what I say, or you can't see the child anymore (the mother)
    d) motives of all parties

    I am bothered by a lot of the "alleged" activity. Stuff like that is put into the public record, yet without resolve (guilty first, then prove your innocence).

    But what bother's me the most is all this inclusion of money. Once again "buying" access. I hate this system. I really do.

    I am glad the grandparents received access. My ex denied my extended family access for years (yup... I have joint custody and 50-50 access). It really hurts everyone. The kids miss so much... but more importantly the family misses kids that grow so fast.

    I talked to another divorced woman the other day and her in-laws are fighting for access. She is not denying them access, but the grandparents want to ensure they will always have access. I really dislike all this legality and rigidness, with all these black and white access agreements (e.g. every other weekend, defined time at holidays). Most people require flexibility in their lives and give-and-take; especially regarding extended family.

    Comment


    • #3
      what bothers me most

      Is that the mother seemed to be acting like a spoiled little brat, who doesn't want to share her toys.

      Children are not possessions, when are people going to get that through their heads??

      She was happy enough to take the money from Grandpa, but doesn't want him to have access to his grandchild.

      The message I got is that her and her mother have an automatic right to raise the child, but his parents (through no fault of their own) were being denied access.

      arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by workingthruit
        Is that the mother seemed to be acting like a spoiled little brat, who doesn't want to share her toys.

        Children are not possessions, when are people going to get that through their heads??

        She was happy enough to take the money from Grandpa, but doesn't want him to have access to his grandchild.

        The message I got is that her and her mother have an automatic right to raise the child, but his parents (through no fault of their own) were being denied access.

        arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh.
        Yup, happens all the time. People are savages. And fully supported by our wonderful system.

        I wonder how much out-of-pocket the grandparents were for all this? And do they realize they have no where to turn when they go to pick up little Sally during the scheduled times and she is not there. That will be an eye-opener.

        Comment


        • #5
          In the case, the judge did comment that the mother was on the border of putting her own wishes before the childs if the access issue was not resolved.

          Paragraph 56 and 57

          [56] The willingness of the mother to foster a relationship between the child and the grandparents is an important factor to consider under this section. Although the mother’s actions to deny access since April 2006 are not unfounded, it may be fair to say that she demonstrates an element of selfishness in continuing to hold a grudge and in not being prepared to give the grandfather another meaningful opportunity to demonstrate by his good actions rather than his harsh words that he will act more sensitively and responsibly in the future.

          -and-

          [57] Although the court is not prepared to find at this stage that the mother is placing her own needs and interests before those of the child, it could be approaching this threshold if the parties do not find a way to properly rehabilitate this situation, keeping the child’s well-being at the forefront.


          The grandfather did make a few mistakes which he openly acknowledged. If he had not acknowledge the mistakes due to frustration, I suspect there would be no access.

          In all, it is good news for the young 17-month-old child to have grandparents.

          lv

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by logicalvelocity
            The grandfather did make a few mistakes which he openly acknowledged. If he had not acknowledge the mistakes due to frustration, I suspect there would be no access.
            lv
            Again, more stuff that makes me so angry. The mother knowingly withholds the child. Punishing the grandparents. Using the child as a pawn. Then the grandfather, being a human, becomes annoyed, frustrated, steps out of line. And that is used against him. The double whammy.

            The mother truly has nothing to lose. She can withhold the child and deny access. Upset the family... which re-enforces her stance on denied access. Get taken to court and puts the screws on them: allegations, financial, etc. Finally "losing" in court what was basically the grandparent's rights and the child's rights in the first place. And she can then continue to deny access. Or not. And then again. Madness. No wonder people just walk away. Ah... the ultimate victory... for whom? You decide.

            Comment


            • #7
              DD,

              I see where you coming from

              It it sufficient to say that there was no monetary penalty to deny the child's access and to subsequent litigate the matter as there was a no cost award. (suggesting that the mother is of limited means)

              I do suspect the grandparents spent a significant amount on legal fees which they were subsequently successful. I do suspect the mother may have been covered by legal aid. If this is so, there is not much incentive to settle a dispute upfront but rather litigate to the end.

              If the grandparents were not successful in their claim, I suspect costs would of been awarded against them.

              The other issue that comes to mind is what if the mother now disregards the court order and continues to deny the child access. What will the penalty be:

              a fine; (this would be detrimental to the child as the mother has limited means)

              imprisonment; or (again detrimental to the child to lose their primary caregiver and whom would care for the child for such a penalty)

              loss of custody ( whom would the court allocate custody to - the father plays no role in the child's life) (The grandparents - highly unlikely)

              In consideration of the facts, I suspect there would be no penalty as each would have a detrimental effect on the child.

              lv

              Comment


              • #8
                LV,

                You put it quite succintly. The entire system is full of double whammies and the double standard. Could you imagine the punishment for withholding CS?Garnish wages, fines, loss of DL, passport, imprisonment. As well as the cost to reduce, change or terminate CS. Imputing income, loss of job, arrears. There is an entire system (the FRO), a prejudice with the SYSTEM (don't pay CS, you must be a terrible parent), custody and access bargaining that will put the screws on you for cash. But there is no where to turn for this kind of nonsense.

                You are correct, what should the punishment for access denial be? In the most extreme cases you could lose custody (happened recently in southern Ontario). But that case took years to prove.

                The only thing I can think of right niow is that the laws be made firmer regarding access and custody and that an office similar to the FRO be made to enforce such access/custody.

                Although financial punishment, as you say, affects the child, I wonder how many parents would start to comply to access and custody if they lost their CTB, UDCB, and tax refunds. Amazingly though, they can inflict financial punishment to the paying parent (even with 50-50 access) which apparantly doesn't "hurt" the child. More double standards.

                Good discussion...

                Comment


                • #9
                  this one really hits home for me. My ex and I had a dispute over 2 years ago with my own parents. We then entered into an argument that took 4 months to resolve. My child was only 6 weeks old. My ex is known for overreacting, and my parents are like myself, passive and logical. But when the bargaining tactics didn't agree with hers, it was war. I remember going home after the initial incident, and my wife saying to me, "I know we're going to have problems between us over this" We rekindled 4 months later, and that only lasted for 3 months when my wife got upset that my parents were not paying enough attention to our 6 month old baby, at my sister's wedding. This started another fight. This fight lasted for about 8 months before my ex and I sought out a councillor to mediate between the 4 of us. My parents wanted to move on, and my wife just couldn't let it go, she had to tell them off. So, things started back up with them, and were starting to get better. Then I flew my daughter and ex to winnipeg to see my siblings with their kids. My ex came back home furious that my dad had helped them with their houses, and not with ours. (we had only begun to get back in each others lives, and my ex father in law is a carpenter) I didn't really care, but I stood up for my wife. That sparked another fight that led until this past fall. This happened last may. I tried one last time to patch things up with them in november, but it didn't work out. And when I got off the phone with my mother, because I didn't handle it the way she wanted me to, we fought, and then the next day she took the kids and ran to her mom's house not know when she was coming back. We patched things up that day, but only 3 months later seperated. My wife has threatened me that if I bring my kids around my parents that she will fight it until the death. My mother is a retired grade 1 school teacher of 32 yrs experience and my dad was involved in childrens athletics most of his life. So very kid oriented people. My parents have only seen my youngest child since we split, and she is 6 months old. When she was born, we weren't talking, but I called them anyways that day to tell them. Like anyone would do, they sent a gift basket the next day. My wife made her mom bring it back to where it was made. She couldn't just give it to the ward to give to someone less fortunate, she made her mom drive to where it came from. My ex also refused a trust fund my parents set up for my childs 1st birthday, and sent that back with a nasty letter that I didn't see until 3 weeks ago. I also was unaware of the gift basket until after the fact. I was not pleased. So, yeah it happens lots. My parents have 4 grandchildren, and 2 they don't see. They will fight this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    One more thing, I even said goodbye to my parents 2 months before we split. I was willing to do whatever it took to keep my family together for the kids, but now realised that it wasn't the right thing to do.

                    Comment

                    Our Divorce Forums
                    Forums dedicated to helping people all across Canada get through the separation and divorce process, with discussions about legal issues, parenting issues, financial issues and more.
                    Working...
                    X