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COVID-19 Case! Pazaratz Please Read

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  • #16
    Public Health Agency of Canada provides guidance. Same for the Provinces, municipalities and police forces. Some have been made law such as Ontario's 5 people limits.. I would hope that anyone that is trying to limit or is faced with imposed limitations could refer to these as reliable references. I have and it was very helpful.

    REASONABLE is the key. Reasonable also assumes rational and informed. Dealing with irrational and unreasonable is the raison d'etre of this forum and many law practices.

    https://www.canada.ca/en/public-heal...topic=tilelink

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    • #17
      I agree with Rockscan. People should only be interacting in-person with people they live with under the same roof. There are far too many people out there taking exceptions, such as "Oh, its only the grandparents and they don't go anywhere anyhow". Keep in touch with them via phone or Skype.

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      • #18
        Just as an FYI this case law from The Honourable Mr. Justice Pazaratz has 21 references as of today.

        https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...04.html#citing

        It simply demonstrates the sad state of affairs in family law. Lawyers as officers of the court need to do better. There are a number that the judges had to distribute copies of this case law to the lawyers. Its pathetic to read that lawyers are not informing themselves.

        Judges should start ordering costs against the lawyer who is assisting a bad argument and who's party fails to succeed in using this unfortunate pandemic to "win" in a custody and access dispute.

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        • #19
          Its too bad they can’t introduce a fee for stupid stuff like this. Withholding your kids unreasonably? $1000 in addition to legal fees. Almost like a contempt fee. Might reduce the stupidity.

          My husband was lucky to have a good lawyer who was up front with him about costs. He would tell us flat out we would lose and how much it would cost us.

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          • #20
            It simply demonstrates the sad state of affairs in family law. Lawyers as officers of the court need to do better. There are a number that the judges had to distribute copies of this case law to the lawyers. Its pathetic to read that lawyers are not informing themselves.

            Judges should start ordering costs against the lawyer who is assisting a bad argument and who's party fails to succeed in using this unfortunate pandemic to "win" in a custody and access dispute.
            This won't happen until the fundamental role of lawyers is changed, which should occur in family court. As Officers of the Court we do have obligations which myself and many of my peers take seriously. However, we also have obligations to take our client's instructions, even when there is personal disagreement. This is not unlimited of course, but drawing the line looks a lot easier after the fact than it is in the moment.

            If a client tells me to lie, it's a straight up dealbreaker. If the client wants to advance a long-shot argument, I might encourage them not to, but sometimes they are steadfast. It can be difficult to tell before judgment what is the 'long-shot' argument, and what was the 'impossible' argument.

            Furthermore, clients lie to their lawyers. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes because they're lying to themselves. We try to dig in, but we have to accept our client's representations as true unless we know it's a lie, which is rare. To do less is to do a disservice to client's who may have unbelievable tales but are in fact telling the truth.

            It's not fair to read the judgement alone as if the lawyer could have be predicted the other side's narrative. That's Monday morning quarterbacking at its' finest. Only if you had the benefit of the client meetings, the competing affidavits and the stuff that doesn't exist on court records could you properly assess the quality (or lack thereof) of the lawyer's actions.

            Change can't come from lawyers alone. In fact, failing to advance 'long-shot' arguments is unethical from the point of view of the lawyer, at least the way the adversarial system is setup. Financially punishing them for losing would run into direct conflict with their roles as advocate.

            However, where it is clear that:

            - The argument was meritless; and
            - The lawyer themselves was responsible for the unnecessary increase in costs.

            The court can and has ordered costs against the lawyer personally. But since it's hard to show the first and nearly impossible to show the second, it's very rare.
            Last edited by Kinso; 04-14-2020, 01:37 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by rockscan View Post
              Its too bad they can’t introduce a fee for stupid stuff like this. Withholding your kids unreasonably? $1000 in addition to legal fees. Almost like a contempt fee. Might reduce the stupidity.

              My husband was lucky to have a good lawyer who was up front with him about costs. He would tell us flat out we would lose and how much it would cost us.

              That’s how lawyers should work... I have a friend going through divorce... he’s already spent $10k and basically got no where... he’s scrapping by while paying for the mat home his ex is living in and he’s living with his parents... his ex constantly brags about how she hasn’t had to pay a penny to her lawyer because she’ll pay him at the end... says he’s a fool for paying a lawyer upfront... his ex has never got a bill from her lawyer... he’s tried to tell her how much this is costing them both but she’s had no out of pocket expenses so she doesn’t care... she’s going to get her eyes open when that big equalization payment she’s expecting is cut in half by lawyer fees...


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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              • #22
                Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                Its too bad they can’t introduce a fee for stupid stuff like this. Withholding your kids unreasonably? $1000 in addition to legal fees. Almost like a contempt fee. Might reduce the stupidity.

                My husband was lucky to have a good lawyer who was up front with him about costs. He would tell us flat out we would lose and how much it would cost us.
                This would be great (if paid by the client, not the lawyer). And the 'fees' should be put into funding access to family law advice. Like a victim surcharge fee in criminal court.
                Last edited by Kinso; 04-14-2020, 01:38 PM.

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                • #23
                  In my husband’s case his lawyer was always up front with us on what will and won’t happen. I also had the benefit of this forum and I did a lot of research. The beauty was that he had an emotional response and I had a rational response backed up by his lawyer. The lawyer was completely honest about his boundaries and what he would and wouldn’t do. My husband understood his obligations and had no problem paying what he was told to pay.

                  In the case of his ex, she had a lawyer on limited scope retainer. Whether that lawyer told her she was crazy or not is unknown but when he finally got involved the matter settled quickly and he was much more reasonable than she was. Not that it stopped the false allegations, revisionist history and lack of documentation. They ended up settling at the exact amount he would have paid had this not gone to court. Give or take a few hundred. She would have ended up with $200 more had she not done it and he may have saved about $500 in education costs. In the end they spent approximately $16,000 combined on lawyers plus the four years of mental anguish.

                  If there had been a fee or even a better check on this stuff it never would have gotten that far. Even with her paying costs for a motion she lost, she still continued with the lies and even tried to defend herself against stuff the judge said.

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                  • #24
                    $16,000 sounds very low considering what many families have been charged. Treating family law like civil litigation is atrocious. But it will never change from within.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
                      But it will never change from within.
                      It will need the combined efforts of Judges, lawyers, academics, court staff, parliament and the public.

                      Good luck getting all of those to move in lockstep.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Kinso View Post
                        It will need the combined efforts of Judges, lawyers, academics, court staff, parliament and the public.

                        Good luck getting all of those to move in lockstep.
                        Might happen before we colonize Mars
                        Maybe Jupiter

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                        • #27
                          How do I file an urgent motion please?

                          Does anyone have a link please ?

                          Also , how difficult is it to do for a self represented litigant please ?

                          Issues have been covered on this thread , its simply that my son's mom has unilaterally cancelled all access to my child.

                          Thanks in advance and thank you to everyone for an absolute incredible forum !!!!!

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                          • #28
                            Tayken posted a link in another thread that I started (search this). In that thread it has all of the steps laid out in the posts of how to do this (and even links to forms).

                            Good luck.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lulubuttons View Post
                              Tayken posted a link in another thread that I started (search this). In that thread it has all of the steps laid out in the posts of how to do this (and even links to forms).

                              Good luck.
                              Thank you very much !!!!

                              Very appreciated ,

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Found it !!!!!

                                Thank you

                                Comment

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