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  • Do nude pictures of parents help judges decide who should get custody?

    J.S. v. M.M., 2016 ONSC 2179 (CanLII)
    Date: 2016-03-31
    Docket: 5448/15
    Citation: J.S. v. M.M., 2016 ONSC 2179 (CanLII),
    http://canlii.ca/t/gp327

    THE HONOURABLE MR. JUSTICE PAZARATZ

    1. Do nude pictures of parents help judges decide who should get custody?

    2. A silly question?

    3. Why then, on this motion for temporary custody, has the Applicant father attached to his affidavit a series of sexually explicit “selfies” of the mother, retrieved from her discarded cell phone?

    4. And why did he attach dozens of screen shots of the mother “sexting” with another man, describing her sexual preferences in graphic detail?

    5. If the objective was to humiliate the mother, undoubtedly the father succeeded.

    6. But how does humiliation help in family court?

    7. How does irrelevant and scandalous information help a judge determine the best interests of the child?

    8. More importantly -- from the child’s perspective -- what is the long-term impact of this needlessly hurtful approach to litigation?

    a. How will this family ever heal?
    b. How will the parents ever again be able to get along?
    c. Can cheap shots ever be forgiven?

    9. Separating parents are already in crisis. Our court process can either make things better or worse. And our success will hinge in part on our ability to address the modern realities of technology and social media.

    10. Between e-mails, Facebook, Twitter, texts and selfies -- privacy and discretion seem a thing of the past. These days there’s no shortage of really embarrassing stuff couples can dredge up against one another -- if that’s really the path we want to encourage.

    11. But what about relevance (never mind dignity)?
    Haven't read it yet but, the first point caught my attention and figured it warranted posting here considering who the justice is.

    30. In a number of recent decisions, this court has urged parents to take a more adult and civilized and reasonable approach to resolving custody and access disputes. Simplistically, I have tried to convey the message:
    Nasty doesn’t work.

    31. The mean-spirited and malicious inclusion of humiliating and completely irrelevant nude pictures and texts in this case cries out for a stronger message:
    Nasty won’t be tolerated.

    Good Luck!
    Tayken
    Last edited by Tayken; 04-06-2016, 03:32 PM.

  • #2
    10. Between e-mails, Facebook, Twitter, texts and selfies -- privacy and discretion seem a thing of the past. These days there’s no shortage of really embarrassing stuff couples can dredge up against one another -- if that’s really the path we want to encourage.

    11. But what about relevance (never mind dignity)?

    12. Sometimes, an embarrassing post from the past can assist the court in determining a contentious issue:

    a. Facebook entries have been known to confirm drug or alcohol abuse, where it was otherwise denied.
    b. Intimidating and threatening behaviour often becomes self-evident in texts.
    c. A parent’s resistant attitude toward timesharing frequently comes through loud and clear in e-mails.
    d. It’s quite amazing the incriminating things people will type and photograph. Too bad if it comes back to haunt them.

    13. But where behaviour is neither unusual, illegal nor disputed, there’s no need to inflame tensions by attaching texts and pictures that tell us nothing we need to know.
    Excellent quote and something for everyone to remember. Judges really don't care about affairs. I don't know how many times I have told people this. Relevance is key in presenting evidence.

    Good Luck!
    Tayken

    Comment


    • #3
      If anything I would think that the one presenting 'intimate' content before a judge only discredits him/herself in the process. This sort of crude evidence should not even be allowed in court unless it directly involves minors.

      Judges are not interested in soothing hurt prides or dispensing revenge. What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas - unless it affects the children.

      Comment


      • #4
        Trashy people who enmesh their innocent children in their squabbles - pathetic really.

        Waste of a good judge's time IMO.

        Comment


        • #5
          What if the nude pictures were presented to the judge by the subject, you know, like a bribe.

          Comment


          • #6
            Meh, this worked for me. Though I wasn't over the top.

            When we were in the process of getting the psychosocial evaluation done my ex-wife was saying she divorced because I was evil but I explained that I divorced her because I caught her sexting from my daughter's bed with my daughter lying next to her (I think I showed a censored version of the photo) and an email where she tried to have an affair with my other married friend.

            I debunked the "he is evil" accusation with a "she is actually a whore" accusation and left it at that. I never brought it up except when my ex-wife would claim abuse and/or how the divorce is so hard on her.... I think it helped my case because its not like i abandoned her all of a sudden. The optics are different.

            Never bit me in the ass once and the psychologist basically validated what I was saying 100% (he read an apology email my friend wrote about "crossing lines").

            As a self-represented litigant you need to be courageous to administer proof but you have to be conscious enough to know how relevant things are and READ the room as you are presenting something (or shut up when the judge looks bored).

            So many people are cheating whores these days that its almost lost its stigma anyways....

            I also think children have the right at an age appropriate age to know if a parent's irresponsibility caused the breakdown of the marriage.
            Last edited by Links17; 04-07-2016, 12:59 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              "also think children have the right at an age appropriate age to know if a parent's irresponsibility caused the breakdown of the marriage."


              Sorry do not know how to do the quote thing!

              But Links you bring up a good point.

              When do we explain the real story? When the snooping teenager finds the stored court documents?

              When the ex spreads lies, or when they ask " how come you and x split? Was it. Excuse of me?
              Last edited by Beachnana; 04-07-2016, 02:20 PM. Reason: Spelling

              Comment


              • #8
                Never. What happens between two partners/lovers/spouses is between them - just as it would be if you were an intact couple.

                If you for some reason feel the need to overshare any details about your personal relationship you should have already accepted that marital breakdown is a result of both parties, not just one, and you should be willing to speak only to the part YOU are responsible for. Whether or not the other parent does the same is irrelevant. You will teach your child much, much more this way than you ever will through some misplaced need to "expose" your ex.
                Last edited by blinkandimgone; 04-07-2016, 02:44 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                  Never. What happens between two partners/lovers/spouses is between them - just as it would be if you were an intact couple.

                  If you for some reason feel the need to overshare any details about your personal relationship you should have already accepted that marital breakdown is a result of both parties, not just one, and you should be willing to speak only to the part YOU are responsible for. Whether or not the other parent does the same is irrelevant. You will teach your child much, much more this way than you ever will through some misplaced need to "expose" your ex.
                  Excellent point about speaking to your own failings, not your perception of what a bad person the other parent is.

                  You do not need to, and you should not, justify your divorce to your kids. it is not good for children to hear Mom talking about how evil Dad is, and it's not good for them to hear Dad talking about what a slut Mom is. A parent who tells kids things like this is doing it for the gratification and excitement they get from trashing and bashing the ex-spouse, they aren't doing it for the sake of the kids (although they will protest that the kids are old enough to hear "what really happened", they deserve to know "the whole truth", etc).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Theres a big difference between THE truth and THEIR truth. Reasonable couples who acknowledge both their failings are able to speak to THE truth: we grew apart, we werent right for each other, we wanted different things etc. Unreasonable people who speak THEIR truth are unable to acknowledge responsibility: your mother was a frigid bitch, your father was abusive, I gave your parent everything and it wasnt enough etc.

                    Kids at a certain maturity level wont understand anything other than "one parent left me so they must not love me very much" (paraphrased of course) and will grow up not understanding. When they hit a specific maturity level they will understand and form their own opinions.

                    You dont need to tell kids anything other than we are getting a divorce, we both love you very much, things will be different but you are the most important thing to both of us.

                    Unfortunately for kids who have been told THEIR truth, they grow up doubting many things and then possibly hating that parent when they learn for themselves.

                    Its sad some parents have to be so vindictive towards their ex spouse because the only people they hurt are the kids.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      True words Rockscan, but in many cases nowadays children are born " out of a traditional relationship". Grow up knowing that their parents live separate.

                      I always thought my grandson would be one of a few but he is one of a sizeable number of children whose parents never lived together or only for a short time.

                      These children often have no memories of Mom and Dad together. I wonder what they will make of it all when they become old enough to question their lives.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Beachnana View Post
                        "also think children have the right at an age appropriate age to know if a parent's irresponsibility caused the breakdown of the marriage."


                        Sorry do not know how to do the quote thing!

                        But Links you bring up a good point.

                        When do we explain the real story? When the snooping teenager finds the stored court documents?

                        When the ex spreads lies, or when they ask " how come you and x split? Was it. Excuse of me?
                        I think that the breakdown of the marriage isn't so much relevant.

                        What is more relevant is the breakdown of the family. If you were part of an organization and suddenly the organization collapses, wouldn't you have the right and want to know why the group you were part of just disintegrated?

                        The children have a right to know without going into excessive detail the cause of the breakdown of the family. They should also learn about it when they are old enough to process it and deal with it in a somewhat "That's old news" type of way.

                        You don;t want them to psychotically despise one of the parents but I think you do want them to understand the truth because it gives them closure, respect as a member of the family and also for their future families helps them understand their parents failure to maintain a family home.

                        The short answer is:
                        a) if the other parent is managing to convince the child you are evil then go ahead
                        b) not so early that the child can't process it and understand it.
                        c) at a time when the child won't be so sensitive to it hopefully.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ^^^^ makes sense.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                            Never. What happens between two partners/lovers/spouses is between them - just as it would be if you were an intact couple.

                            If you for some reason feel the need to overshare any details about your personal relationship you should have already accepted that marital breakdown is a result of both parties, not just one, and you should be willing to speak only to the part YOU are responsible for. Whether or not the other parent does the same is irrelevant. You will teach your child much, much more this way than you ever will through some misplaced need to "expose" your ex.
                            Keeping it classy, isn't a concept some can grasp.
                            Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              marital breakdown is a result of both parties, not just one
                              I want you to say that a woman who gets beaten up because she asks to eat a meal and then divorces him is partially at fault for the marriage break down.

                              These platitudes sound nice but are BS. Sometimes breakdowns are the fault of one party, sometimes they are the fault of both but generalizing isn't right.

                              Comment

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