Please confirm they have no right to do this then sue the crap out of them.
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Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostThis is a fantastic point PM .. and so far we're off to a great start. She texted to ask if I would stay and talk for a bit ,, ended up shaking hands and both agreed that we could move together in positive fashion.
As a brand new joint custody parent, I'm trying to be as informed as possible regarding when consents are required, not required .. especially if one parent has offered alternatives and expressed discomfort with the medical attention (witness counseling)...the other parent trumps Parent A because its on their time?
When was the last time she had a session?? I am worried that if the sessions have stopped and you make a big deal of it your "great start" may get de-railed quickly.
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Originally posted by standing on the sidelines View PostIMHO it does suck that they say they didn't need your consent. I don't agree with that.
When was the last time she had a session?? I am worried that if the sessions have stopped and you make a big deal of it your "great start" may get de-railed quickly.
Things are going stellar. I'm not bringing this stuff up with ex. Just some "odf" talk trying to figure out my rights.
I think our child has undergone enough mature questioning ... and I was taken aback when I read agencies letter letting me know I had no say in anything.
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I again will say that the date of the letter from these people PRECEDED the date of your final settlement with your ex.
When they penned the letter they were likely aware that the custody battle was ongoing.... merely a CYA move on their part.
I'd merely keep an ear to the ground. If you hear from your daughter that she is going to these people again then have a discussion with your ex about this and then you can make a decision whether or not you want to do anything about stopping the counselling.
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Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post... because this agency has sent me a letter indicating that I do not in fact have a say...only mom does.
2. Search the various Ontario "MEDICAL REGISTRIES" for that professional's name. (e.g. Member Directory: The Canadian College of Professional Counsellors and Psychotherapists (CCPCP))
3. If you do not find the person in any of the mental heal services registires you then ask for that person's credentials. If they don't have any proceed to #4. If they do proceed to #5.
4. If the person is not credentialed as a medical professional you then report their conduct to the local police. I would recommend you do so through crime stoppers and describe the whole situation in detail. Police services take the fake delivery of medical services very importantly. You report the person not the organization.
See: Fake psychologist's victims real
5. If they are registered file a complaint with their governing body and provide a copy of your signed agreement. Provide the letter you have gotten and advise the governing body you do not consent and expect them to act in accordance with the various laws governing their profession.
Too many bogus "therapists" and "counselors" in Ontario these days. They need to enforce credentials better for this "profession".
Good Luck!
Tayken
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^^^ I'd be careful about this. The organization has said explicitly that the services being provided, whatever they are, are not medical in nature so there's no question of someone misrepresenting him/herself as a mental health professional. Crime stoppers/police will not be interested, because there is no fraud.
If the OP has all the time in the world, he could investigate whether the services being provided are fundamentally the same as those provided by registered psychologists, and then go to the provincial college with a complaint about an unlicensed person practicing. But he would need really strong proof that the prerogatives of licensed psychologists are being usurped. The word "counsellor" can cover many things (unfortunately), not all of which are the terrain of licensed professionals.
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There are a few things wrong with the CTR's response.
To begin, any kind of mental health intervention is considered medical.
Secondly, the organization claims that they are not doing anything "life-altering". I think that's an extremely subjective, ambiguous statement on their part. Who are they to say what D4 considers or perceives as life-altering?
She's 4 years old and has already been spoken to about her private parts, lies, secrets, etc by strange adults. She deserves the chance to be a kid. And I deserve the chance to at least know whats being discussed, be a part of it and/or have a say in it.
My ex asked for my consent for the witness counselor. I declined since D4 never witnessed violence. You don't go to a foot Dr to cure a tooth ache. I offered 5-6 licensed, qualified, neutral child psychologists and offered to pay.
Ex has stated that D4 shuts down wont talk about anything, etc. I'm guessing this may be due to of all this mature, inappropriate questioning from unqualified ppl who may be doing more damage than good.
I'm certainly not going to make a mountain out of a mole-hill here .. but this agency needs to realize that father's have rights too.
Let's not forget that my ex said ..IN LAO SC in front of everyone ... that there was never any abuse, verbal or otherwise . in her own words "things got blown out of proportion and she was sorry".
Too bad this women's shelter didn't see this for almost 3 years and encouraged her actions and gave her every tool available.
The last thing I expected was a letter saying that the Witness Counselor will talk to my child all they want and there's not a damn thing that I, as the biological father can do about it....based on their loosey goosey subjective definitions of "medical" and "life-altering".
Tayken....thanks for the info. I do have the counsleor's name. I'll look in to it a bit more when I get home and decide if I want to do anything about it.
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Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostThere are a few things wrong with the CTR's response.
To begin, any kind of mental health intervention is considered medical.
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostSecondly, the organization claims that they are not doing anything "life-altering".
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostI think that's an extremely subjective, ambiguous statement on their part. Who are they to say what D4 considers or perceives as life-altering?
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostShe's 4 years old and has already been spoken to about her private parts, lies, secrets, etc by strange adults. She deserves the chance to be a kid. And I deserve the chance to at least know whats being discussed, be a part of it and/or have a say in it.
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostMy ex asked for my consent for the witness counselor. I declined since D4 never witnessed violence. You don't go to a foot Dr to cure a tooth ache. I offered 5-6 licensed, qualified, neutral child psychologists and offered to pay.
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostEx has stated that D4 shuts down wont talk about anything, etc. I'm guessing this may be due to of all this mature, inappropriate questioning from unqualified ppl who may be doing more damage than good.
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostI'm certainly not going to make a mountain out of a mole-hill here .. but this agency needs to realize that father's have rights too.
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostLet's not forget that my ex said ..IN LAO SC in front of everyone ... that there was never any abuse, verbal or otherwise . in her own words "things got blown out of proportion and she was sorry".
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostToo bad this women's shelter didn't see this for almost 3 years and encouraged her actions and gave her every tool available.
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostThe last thing I expected was a letter saying that the Witness Counselor will talk to my child all they want and there's not a damn thing that I, as the biological father can do about it....based on their loosey goosey subjective definitions of "medical" and "life-altering".
Originally posted by LovingFather32 View PostTayken....thanks for the info. I do have the counsleor's name. I'll look in to it a bit more when I get home and decide if I want to do anything about it.
Good Luck!
Tayken
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Originally posted by stripes View PostIf the OP has all the time in the world, he could investigate whether the services being provided are fundamentally the same as those provided by registered psychologists, and then go to the provincial college with a complaint about an unlicensed person practicing. But he would need really strong proof that the prerogatives of licensed psychologists are being usurped. The word "counsellor" can cover many things (unfortunately), not all of which are the terrain of licensed professionals.
I have helped with a number of successful complaints and the shutdown of similar nutjobs claiming to provide psudo-psychological services.
Good Luck!
Tayken
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I cant remember lf32 but isnt there a clause in your agreement that you will agree on a service like this? Or agree on medical etc? This is considered medical (loosely) and should be stopped. Perhaps a copy of the signed agreement? Also, d4 starts school in two weeks so wont it stop then?
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Tayken, I think you're mistaken here. The term "counsellor" is wide open in Canada (except in the sense of legal counsel) - anyone can hang out a shingle and call him or herself a counsellor. Not everyone can call him/herself a doctor, a psychologist, a social worker or a psychotherapist, so if someone is using those terms, s/he may be breaking the law. The same is true if someone is prescribing medication or administering psychometric tests or other activities which are restricted to regulated professions. However, just talking about life and feelings and calling it "counselling" is completely legit. I'm not saying this is a good thing
It sounds like the shelter is being explicit that this is not medical in nature, and it would be difficult to prove that it is (how do you prove that something is a medical intervention, as distinct from "social support"?). My guess is that the shelter staff deal with this issue repeatedly - non-clients or estranged spouses wanting to determine what services the shelter offers to whom - and they've got their response down pat.
The OP can try reporting this to the Ontario College of Physicians or CAS or whoever, but I'm pretty sure it won't go anywhere because the shelter is acting within the law. I agree with other posters, this situation is most likely to resolve itself with the passage of time, and if there's no evidence that Kid is being harmed by it, it's not the hill to die on. The important thing is that Kid now has both parents in her life on an equal basis.
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When I worked in the shelter, we didn't use the title counsellor. We used Women's Intervention Advocate and Children's Intervention Advocate.
We were referred to by Family and Children's Services/CAS daily. There is no need to report the shelter to CAS and the idea is simply preposterous to say the least.
It was CAS that asked the "mature" questions about your D4's body parts, right LF? Be honest and forthcoming here. The shelter does not deal with abuse toward children. We reported to FACS/CAS and let them take it from there. We did not engage in any intervention where a child was abused AT ALL. CAS would be outraged if we interfered with their investigations in any way.
Further, if D4 was seeing the Youth Counsellor in your school (likely a two year college grad with a child/youth worker diploma) would you be freaking out?? No.
I will tell you honestly that the shelter are CRISIS INTERVENTION only. Any "longer term" work would have been in a group format for several weeks only. Not 1:1 like you claim.
Interventions in the shelter are based on an Educational Model. Topics for women include identifying abusive behaviour, life and parenting skills, self esteem, etc. There is nothing that would qualify as medical intervention.
Sorry, you are simply wrong and grasping at the next straw trying to figure out who to blame next for your own mistakes.
Interventions for children in the shelter do not include any "mature" topics. The thought makes me laugh. They were very simple, feelings identification and self esteem. There is no malicious hidden agenda. We do not Daddy bash or man hate to children!
As I had posted long ago, the shelter deals with abusive partners. A man requesting information will be flatly denied. Would you hand a partner who had beaten and harrassed and name called a women information about her? I would hope not.
Keep pushing the shetler and see what happens. The shelter is backed by social services, the police, CAS, LAO and judges everywhere. THEY ARE TRYING TO HELP WOMEN and you are just wasting their time trying to be an ass.
I have seen hundreds of women and children in the shelter. Average length of stay in our shelter during my time there was 5-7 days. Women often returned home hoping their partner would change. I have seen women battered and bloody and terrified. One woman hid in a ditch all night because it was her only way to escape.
I had a seven year old look me in the eye and say with tears, "I wish my Daddy didn't hurt Mommy. I wish he had a bigger head or maybe a bigger heart."
And you want to waste their time by requesting information on something that you don't understand. You want to file a complaint? I am sure the shelter has nothing better to do that deal with your sob story.
So take your ridiculous, whiny BS somewhere else. You got 50/50. You say your daughter is happy, healthy and thriving in your care. She is going to school where her behaviour will be monitored by a licensed teacher, a Registered ECE and will have a resource teacher and a school counsellor at her disposal. What more do you want?? What punishment for those involved with your case will make you feel like justice is served??
The person who needs counselling is you LF.Last edited by SadAndTired; 01-18-2016, 07:17 PM.
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Originally posted by SadAndTired View PostWhen I worked in the shelter, we didn't use the title counsellor. We used Women's Intervention Advocate and Children's Intervention Advocate.
We were referred to by Family and Children's Services/CAS daily. There is no need to report the shelter to CAS and the idea is simply preposterous to say the least.
It was CAS that asked the "mature" questions about your D4's body parts, right LF? Be honest and forthcoming here. The shelter does not deal with abuse toward children. We reported to FACS/CAS and let them take it from there. We did not engage in any intervention where a child was abused AT ALL. CAS would be outraged if we interfered with their investigations in any way.
Further, if D4 was seeing the Youth Counsellor in your school (likely a two year college grad with a child/youth worker diploma) would you be freaking out?? No.
I will tell you honestly that the shelter are CRISIS INTERVENTION only. Any "longer term" work would have been in a group format for several weeks only. Not 1:1 like you claim.
Interventions in the shelter are based on an Educational Model. Topics for women include identifying abusive behaviour, life and parenting skills, self esteem, etc. There is nothing that would qualify as medical intervention.
Sorry, you are simply wrong and grasping at the next straw trying to figure out who to blame next for your own mistakes.
Interventions for children in the shelter do not include any "mature" topics. The thought makes me laugh. They were very simple, feelings identification and self esteem. There is no malicious hidden agenda. We do not Daddy bash or man hate to children!
As I had posted long ago, the shelter deals with abusive partners. A man requesting information will be flatly denied. Would you hand a partner who had beaten and harrassed and name called a women information about her? I would hope not.
Keep pushing the shetler and see what happens. The shelter is backed by social services, the police, CAS, LAO and judges everywhere. THEY ARE TRYING TO HELP WOMEN and you are just wasting their time trying to be an ass.
I have seen hundreds of women and children in the shelter. Average length of stay in our shelter during my time there was 5-7 days. Women often returned home hoping their partner would change. I have seen women battered and bloody and terrified. One woman hid in a ditch all night because it was her only way to escape.
I had a seven year old look me in the eye and say with tears, "I wish my Daddy didn't hurt Mommy. I wish he had a bigger head or maybe a bigger heart."
And you want to waste their time by requesting information on something that you don't understand. You want to file a complaint? I am sure the shelter has nothing better to do that deal with your sob story.
So take your ridiculous, whiny BS somewhere else. You got 50/50. You say your daughter is happy, healthy and thriving in your care. She is going to school where her behaviour will be monitored by a licensed teacher, a Registered ECE and will have a resource teacher and a school counsellor at her disposal. What more do you want?? What punishment for those involved with your case will make you feel like justice is served??
The person who needs counselling is you LF.
Nice anecdotes - 15 million women in Canada, a few thousand in shelters - its nothing and goes to show that 99% of men are not violent and have no problems.
In the LF's case we have somebody he has confirmed as being an imbecile being supported by imbeciles, and you with your backwards comments... Reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tealqxV0TtM
(go to 53 seconds)
Somebody under the guise of being a professional that works in a "woman's protection" organization is speaking to his daughter. Either he is a "threat" and they get a court order to counsel his daughter against his wishes or they get consent from him. We know that women's only organizations are most likely to be sexist against men etc... why would I let my daughter have her mind brainwashed by these idiots.
I sure as hell would not consent to this and I would pursue it and if I had the legal right I would sue them. Its only through persistence and following up on things that you will elicit change.
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I think these womens' shelters would go a long way if they quit giving workers important-sounding titles. Perhaps a title such as "shelter associate" would be more appropriate?
"Intervention Advocate" sounds both pompous and disingenuous IMO and it also recklessly implies that the individual has authority, specialized education, when clearly they do not.
With that said, I realize that there are many good, well-meaning people who volunteer at the women's shelters and I commend them.
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Originally posted by SadAndTired View PostIt was CAS that asked the "mature" questions about your D4's body parts, right LF?
Be honest and forthcoming here.
The shelter does not deal with abuse toward children.
Further, if D4 was seeing the Youth Counsellor in your school (likely a two year college grad with a child/youth worker diploma) would you be freaking out??
But to be fair, Ive never heard of a school counselor assisting in an unwarranted abduction, telling their clients to surreptitiously record household conversations, provide legal aid, housing, provide the funding and means for a streak of terror for almost 3 years of BS....(after which point my ex finally reveals "everything was blown out of proportion and she is sorry").
No consequences for the unqualified shelter workers who are limited in their capacity to weed out the game players and facilitated a situation whereby a child the traumatic experience of being denied access to a loving family.
The only person my ex should feel sorry for is our daughter.
And the shelters .. yes we need them and yes they help people. But they need to improve how they operate to stop the kind of madness that happened to me.
We did not engage in any intervention where a child was abused AT ALL
Were there witness counselors at your shelter? Because that's what Im dealing with here. Again, its for children who witness violence/abuse, which D4 has never (as just admitted by my ex at LAO SC).
Keep pushing the shetler and see what happens. The shelter is backed by social services, the police, CAS, LAO and judges everywhere. THEY ARE TRYING TO HELP WOMEN and you are just wasting their time trying to be an ass.
S&T .. again I will kindly ask you to refrain from name-calling. I don't appreciate being called an ass. Deep breath before you type.
And you want to waste their time by requesting information on something that you don't understand. You want to file a complaint?
I understand perfectly what's going on. As Tayken said it's "not proper". This agency has done enough damage for close to 3 years dont you think?
I am sure the shelter has nothing better to do that deal with your sob story.
Yes it is a sob story. I sobbed quite a bit actually.
I will tell you honestly that the shelter are CRISIS INTERVENTION only. Any "longer term" work would have been in a group format for several weeks only. Not 1:1 like you claim.
I had a seven year old look me in the eye and say with tears, "I wish my Daddy didn't hurt Mommy. I wish he had a bigger head or maybe a bigger heart."
Interventions in the shelter are based on an Educational Model. Topics for women include identifying abusive behaviour, life and parenting skills, self esteem, etc. There is nothing that would qualify as medical intervention.
If a witness counselor treats my child for alleged mood swings and provides coping startegies .. over many weeks via 1 on 1 sessions....yes this is surely considered medical. And in my opinion could certainly be life-altering for a child depending on the topics, tone, leading q's (unqualified pro's), etc.
Sorry, you are simply wrong and grasping at the next straw trying to figure out who to blame next for your own mistakes.
And yes I am blaming this agency for counseling our daughter regarding abuse (witness counselor) despite my non-consent and discomfort. In contrast, I have no qualms at all with registered, qualified professionals who are specially trained to deal with sensitive young minds without leaving scars. Its irresponsible of them .. and again, in Tayken's words .. improper.
So take your ridiculous, whiny BS somewhere else.
What more do you want?? What punishment for those involved with your case will make you feel like justice is served??
The person who needs counselling is you LF.
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