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  • Wife moved kids without permission

    So my STBX was a very good mom until she blindsided me and announced she wanted a divorce. She then became a 40 year old who is trying to re live her 20s and started going out all the time. I stepped it up as a dad and stayed home all of the time when I wasn't working. She would send the kids to relatives or friend's houses if I were working. This went on for about 6 months and I have it all documented on a spread sheet calendar with screen shots of text messages and emails from both mine and my kids phones (10&13 year old). Last month while I was at work she moved out with the kids and backed a moving truck up to the house and took a ton of stuff. I found out by her through email. She is now dictating a schedule that is significantly less time than what I was doing and her lawyer is demanding child support. I am worried this will become status quo. I thought that I had already established status quo with my tracking. Will the judge look at my tracking. Will her recent or past actions have any influence with the judge. Please help me here

  • #2
    You should have, and still should now, file a motion to have the children returned to their familiar residence. The longer you wait, the worse your odds become of having the children returned to the matrimonial home. You also include in the motion that alternatively, if the kids are not returned, you want 50/50 parenting time with the child and joint custody. That way if the judge decides that they shouldn't be returned to your house, that they can order a parenting time schedule. In the mean time, you need to be requesting 50/50 custody of the children as that is in their best interests.

    How far did she move? Are the kids still in the same school zone? These things matter. If she moved them out of the city or school zone, your odds increase as the children should generally stay in their familiar location. Their lives shouldn't be unnecessarily disrupted. If it is a different school zone I assume she enrolled them in a new school.

    Have you advised her that you do not agree with her unilateral decision to remove the children from their place of residence and change their school (if applicable)? If not, you need to advise her of just that. She doesn't get to play keep away with the kids due to her unilateral decision.

    As for status quo your argument is that she is creating a false status quo by unreasonably withholding the children. That you are equally capable of caring for the children, and her withholding them is not in the children's best interests. That the children have the right to relationships with both parents, and that both parents are obligated to facilitate the relationship with the other. That her decision to unilaterally withhold parenting time from you is the opposite of that obligation.

    You need to move all communication to email if you haven't. Text is ok, but email is better. No more telephone calls. If she calls you, you limit it to discussions about the children and then send an email to the ex confirming the conversation.

    Right now she has the power because she has the kids. You need to take back some of that by filing a motion in court.

    Comment


    • #3
      Her initial email said that if I don't agree with her schedule she would have sole custody until things are sorted. I emailed and said I don't agree but the kids should see their dad. She held them back from me the first day. She moved them 10min away. The distance did take them out of the school zone. She now drives them. My lawyer sent them a very stern, yet professional letter and mentioned court action. They sent a letter back that was just full of personal attacks and gave me a different schedule that was even less time with the kids. It looked like my wife wrote the letter and her lawyer added some big words here and there. My lawyer sent another letter that again was very professional. We are waiting on a reply and I filled out the court documents. We plan on court action if they don't comply. My 13 year old son was telling me that my wife's lawyer told her that she is legally entitled to come and go as she pleases from the house. He also said that he doesn't like the schedule that I made. I told him that I didn't make the schedule and he said that his mom said that I made it. Now I think she is filling the kids heads with crap.

      Comment


      • #4
        Don’t engage the kids. Repeat—DO NOT ENGAGE THE KIDS.

        If your kids say anything about the situation your response is “this is between your mom and I and I don’t want you to worry about it”. She can say whatever she wants to them, you be the better person. “Its unfortunate you are being involved in this, its between mom and me and I won’t discuss it or involve you”.

        The biggest mistake you can make is engaging the kids. Remember they are kids and are being subjected to unnecessary hostility.

        File the motion. Don’t wait. Get a court date. She can write anything she wants, she doesn’t get to steal your kids and demand payment.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
          Her initial email said that if I don't agree with her schedule she would have sole custody until things are sorted. I emailed and said I don't agree but the kids should see their dad.
          She can say lots of things, it doesn't mean they will happen. You did the right thing by saying you don't agree. The ex doesn't get to dictate terms relating to the children. Until either a court order or an agreement says otherwise, you both have defacto joint custody. You can pick up the kids any time and keep for as long as you like, just as the ex is entitled. Don't be unreasonable, but don't be a push over.


          She held them back from me the first day.
          That will not look good on her. She doesn't get to use the kids as pawns to get you to agree to her terms. That is not acting reasonable or negotiating in good faith.

          She moved them 10min away. The distance did take them out of the school zone. She now drives them.
          Also not good for her. She needs to understand that she must co-parent. Making unilateral decisions like this are the opposite of that. Make sure you have made your opposition known to her decisions.

          My lawyer sent them a very stern, yet professional letter and mentioned court action.
          It is good that you have a lawyer, you're gonna need one. Just be sure to manage them so they don't rack up billable time unnecessarily.

          They sent a letter back that was just full of personal attacks and gave me a different schedule that was even less time with the kids. It looked like my wife wrote the letter and her lawyer added some big words here and there.
          Ignore the BS. They will try to paint you as the devil. The courts have heard this over and over. Keep focused on the kids and don't get drawn into a mud slinging contest. If they send a letter full of accusations, a blanket statement that you deny all accusations in that letter in a response will suffice.

          My lawyer sent another letter that again was very professional. We are waiting on a reply and I filled out the court documents. We plan on court action if they don't comply.
          Move this to court sooner than later. Make offers to settle based off of 50/50 and joint custody. An alternative to joint custody is parallel parenting, which you can read up on (one parent gets sole decision making on schooling, the other on health and religion, for example).

          My 13 year old son was telling me that my wife's lawyer told her that she is legally entitled to come and go as she pleases from the house. He also said that he doesn't like the schedule that I made. I told him that I didn't make the schedule and he said that his mom said that I made it. Now I think she is filling the kids heads with crap.
          Keep the kid out of it. If the kids bring it up, you say that it is between their mom and you, and that you will work it out as best as you can. Then you change the topic.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Super dad View Post
            I am worried this will become status quo.
            You should be worried. This will indeed becomes the status quo.

            I thought that I had already established status quo with my tracking.
            You did, but now you are in the process of losing it.

            Please help me here
            You needed to be in court yesterday. Writing letters doesn't help. If your lawyer won't file find a new lawyer.

            When the ex takes the kids without your permission, that is an emergency.

            I can't believe you have waited a month. You should have filed the day after she took them. It is already late. Luckily it is not too late, but it is approaching that point very very quickly.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Janus View Post
              You should be worried. This will indeed becomes the status quo.
              His argument to the "new" status quo will be that it is a false status quo, engineered unilaterally by the ex. It isn't insurmountable, but the longer he waits to file a motion changing this, the harder it will be.

              Comment


              • #8
                This stunt of hers has also cost me $1800 I legal fees plus whatever court will cost. Can I somehow have her pay for this?

                Comment


                • #9
                  $1800 is nothing. Prepare yourself for more. If you make it to trial and you win you could try to argue for costs but thats a crapshoot. Start watching your money, don’t call your lawyer for multiple things, tell them you want to see stuff before they respond and watch every penny spent.

                  You have to remind yourself that the money is spent to see your kids.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                    This stunt of hers has also cost me $1800 I legal fees plus whatever court will cost. Can I somehow have her pay for this?
                    If you have any funds- put aside 10k now. If you need to liquefy your assets. Get ready to do that.

                    An avg custody dispute is going to cost you at least 20k. And that's IF you settle.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks guys. This forum is super helpful. Wish I looked it up 6 months ago. Anyway, still wondering if my tracking will help anything. I basically built a calendar in Excel and it has her coming and going everyday for the last 6 months. It shows daily how many hours she either left the kids with me or someone else so she could go out. Every day is supported with screenshots of text messages and emails from my phone or my kids phones with her saying she will be out. I have messages from 4am with me asking her to come home so I can go to work. I have one from my son's phone where she asks him to ask his friends if he can sleep at their house so she can go for a sleepover. I feel sort of dirty using my kids phones to prove she is not there for them when I'm at work. I hope my kids never find out and will forgive me if they do. Will this have any impact with a judge?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It probably will never get to the judge. Keep it as documentation that can be used in discussions with her or as proof to back up a claim. Its good documentation but may never go anywhere.

                        Leaving with the kids does not look good on her which help your case. As long as the emergency motion has been filed to get them back you can focus on moving that forward.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          So my STBX was a very good mom until she blindsided me and announced she wanted a divorce. She then became a 40 year old who is trying to re live her 20s and started going out all the time. I stepped it up as a dad and stayed home all of the time when I wasn't working. She would send the kids to relatives or friend's houses if I were working. This went on for about 6 months and I have it all documented on a spread sheet calendar with screen shots of text messages and emails from both mine and my kids phones (10&13 year old).
                          Welcome to no-fault divorce. No one cares. Especially the judge. I would not bother with this kind of nonsense. It just causes you emotional distress and creates unnecessary conflict.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          Last month while I was at work she moved out with the kids and backed a moving truck up to the house and took a ton of stuff. I found out by her through email.
                          This would happen eventually. (Living separate and apart.) Bandaid approach but, see my comments below.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          She is now dictating a schedule that is significantly less time than what I was doing and her lawyer is demanding child support.
                          1. Child support is based on a schedule. You have no schedule. So until such time, the issues of custody and access are resolved child support will sit idol.

                          2. At best you should calculate the off-set 50-50 payment that either of you would pay. If you are the paying parent in that scenario open a bank account and start paying that account.

                          3. At worst you should calculate what full table child support would be should you not be able to establish yourself as a joint custodial parent with equal (50-50) access and pay that into the account.

                          With the climate in the courts these days (depending on if you are in the GTA, Hamilton, Peel, Milton or Durham Regions) #2 is a highly likely scenario. (Where you get joint custody and equal access of the children.)

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          I am worried this will become status quo.
                          It won't if you act in an appropriate time frame. Wait 4-5 months and it could become the status quo. But, with a 10 year old and a 13 year old in the mix. It will be hard for that to happen. They have opinions, options and are independent thinkers. (Especially a 13 year old.)

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          I thought that I had already established status quo with my tracking. Will the judge look at my tracking. Will her recent or past actions have any influence with the judge. Please help me here
                          No. It will just make you look a bit silly. Don't every concern yourself with what the other parent does. As well, tracking is stocking. Concern yourself with the evidence of what YOU do as a parent. Not the other parent.

                          Stop trying to make the other parent look bad. Start organizing your thoughts about you as a parent. What you do. Your relationship to the children. That is YOUR evidence. Most cases where the parent attacks the other parent never works out. The "I DO EVERYTHING FOR THE KIDS" pattern of evidence is bullshit and most judges know this, have seen it all before.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          Her initial email said that if I don't agree with her schedule she would have sole custody until things are sorted.
                          Retain counsel and bring a motion immediately. Don't even bother sending a demand letter. Have your lawyer prepare standard 50-50 access and joint custody offer in full in accordance with the rules. Send that first in its own package. Then send immediately a fully completed motion, and other supporting documentation that outlines a request that is IDENTICAL to the offer. Attach a very basic affidavit with no allegations against the other parent other than pure facts.

                          Pure facts are ones that don't require paragraphs of bullshit to explain them.

                          1. On date X parent Y moved from the residence.

                          2. On date X at time Z parent Y sent an email explicitly stating they had moved:

                          RELEVANT QUOTE FROM EMAIL.

                          Please see schedule "A" attached to my affidavit... blah blah blah. (Your lawyer will have a style for this.)

                          If you indeed did get email communications where the other parent enshrined stupidity like you are saying you don't need to say it was stupid. Just quote it exactly and provide the evidence. Often people overdo lead-ups to evidence that is unnecessary.

                          A good lawyer will be able to write your affidavit and clean it of all the emotional BS that most people include that is irrelevant.

                          (Now this comment may not be relevant due to the duration of the conduct being one day. I included the above for anyone who is reading this and going through a situation where it goes well beyond a day.)

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          I emailed and said I don't agree but the kids should see their dad.
                          Tip: Hopefully you wrote it in a matter that you would not have to explain yourself, emotion or conduct to a judge. By that mean you wrote it with the understanding that a judge could read it. You should from now on write every response to the other parent as if a JUDGE is actually reading every correspondence. Even SMS messages.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          She held them back from me the first day.
                          One day does not win a case. So I wouldn't try to boil an ocean on 1 day of evidence. Be upset but, you are better off going to counselling and spending your dollars there (cheaper) than fighting it out in court.

                          I suspect you are easily emotionally baited. You need to develop tools on how to deescalate conflict. Check out William Eddy's materials from the High Conflict Institute. Specifically the BIFF stuff. (Google it.)

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          She moved them 10min away. The distance did take them out of the school zone. She now drives them.
                          Sorry to say this is an insignificant move as well. Judges are quite lenient with parental moves that are under a 25km radius from the school in southern Ontario. In many cases, it boils down to the time spent in the car commuting to school. Significant time. Longer than a student in a rural community would spend on a bus going to school. (1.2-1.5h roughly)

                          Likely their is direct public transit between the home that is 10km away and their school. I suspect they are walking distance or in the zone for bussing where you are residing.

                          If you own this residence be prepared to have to sell it soon. It is probably a joint-owned property. Sorry to say. So don't die on the hill of where you currently live. That will change unless you have a rich relative that can give you a private mortgage and 0% interest loan to keep the place... It's going to be sold.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          My lawyer sent them a very stern, yet professional letter and mentioned court action.
                          As they should.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          They sent a letter back that was just full of personal attacks and gave me a different schedule that was even less time with the kids. It looked like my wife wrote the letter and her lawyer added some big words here and there.
                          Probably the case. You should be looking the lawyer up on CanLII to see if they have previous cases and how they conducted them. If nothing comes up then they don't go to court and are blowing hot air.

                          Letters are a waste of time. See the comment above about what you should do.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          My lawyer sent another letter that again was very professional. We are waiting for a reply and I filled out the court documents.
                          See the comments above on the next step. Do an OFFER TO SETTLE FIRST! That way when you smoke them in court you can get your costs easily.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          We plan on court action if they don't comply.
                          Just do it. Don't "plan". But, first should be a comprehensive and severable offer to settle sent in accordance with the rules. That will screw them up big time. The lawyer on the other side will have to review the offer to settle with their client and advise them about the offer. Especially when it is tailed by a real motion to court with a real date and all the paperwork. (Form 13.1, Form 35.1, Affidavit (simple), and the motion request and other relevant forms.)

                          I would just turn the 35.1 into your offer to settle really. You have a high probability of getting a 50-50 access and joint custody order on the first motion. ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE IN HAMILTON AREA.

                          If your lawyer doesn't get this strategy get a new lawyer.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          My 13 year old son was telling me that my wife's lawyer told her that she is legally entitled to come and go as she pleases from the house.
                          That is "somewhat" correct. There is no custody and access order in place. So nothing can be enforced. Police won't get involved as this is a civil matter. Even with a court order, it is hard to make a child live somewhere at that age. At 14 things change significantly. Read my other main threads on all this stuff for more detail.

                          Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                          He also said that he doesn't like the schedule that I made. I told him that I didn't make the schedule and he said that his mom said that I made it. Now I think she is filling the kids heads with crap.
                          Not much you can do. Hopefully the 13-year-old is reasonable and does not have a disability that impedes their cognitive function. Autistic children often are easily and unfortunately abused by dominating parents hell-bent on "winning" and "punishing" the other parent. Parents fail to give their kids the credit they deserve. They are some of the best parental crap detectors out there.

                          Good Luck!
                          Tayken
                          Last edited by Tayken; 11-29-2019, 03:35 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                            Thanks guys. This forum is super helpful. I wish I looked it up 6 months ago. Anyway, still wondering if my tracking will help anything.
                            Let your lawyer select what is relevant. YOu don't understand the concept of legal relevance. It is super complex and most lawyers struggle with it. Especially in family law!

                            Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                            I basically built a calendar in Excel and it has her coming and going every day for the last 6 months. It shows daily how many hours she either left the kids with me or someone else so she could go out. Every day is supported with screenshots of text messages and emails from my phone or my kid's phones with her saying she will be out.
                            A good lawyer will reverse engineer this to demonstrate what parenting you did over that time and not to discredit the other parent. You should not talk about when the other parent is in/out/absent etc... You want to use that information to demonstrate you as a parent. Not how bad the other parent is.

                            Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                            I have messages from 4 am with me asking her to come home so I can go to work. I have one from my son's phone where she asks him to ask his friends if he can sleep at their house so she can go for a sleepover.
                            Sorry to say but, you have a 13-year-old. They can be home and get themselves to school. Not like they are infants. Unless they are developmentally delayed and are not capable of being on their own for 5-10 hours in a day.

                            Originally posted by Super dad View Post
                            I feel sort of dirty using my kid's phones to prove she is not there for them when I'm at work. I hope my kids never find out and will forgive me if they do. Will this have any impact on a judge?
                            A good lawyer will never present this evidence. They will use the knowledge/information to trap the other parent. If they outright lie then they will spring the evidence in response and only to demonstrate when the other parent is misleading the court. Its "evidence in waiting" for proper use. It takes a very experienced lawyer to know when and if this evidence should ever be used.

                            Worry about your conduct and not the conduct of the other parent. Simply stating you were caring for the children on that day and not worry about what the other parent was doing. Explaining their absence is their responsibility. If they give bad evidence that is misleading your lawyer can eat them alive in response.

                            Misleading the court is a bad thing to do. It doesn't win cases but, it widdles down the "your a bad parent" argument rapidly.

                            Here is some case law for you to read that smells similar to your situation:

                            https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...4onsc4002.html

                            All these citings for that case as well:

                            https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...002.html#cited

                            And the costs:

                            https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...4onsc4707.html

                            Don't be a Breaking Bad Parent.

                            Good Luck!
                            Tayken
                            Last edited by Tayken; 11-29-2019, 03:33 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I beg you to read that case and the other cases it has influenced. It could be the best investment of time you make today.

                              Comment

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