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  • #16
    I don't think that lawyers are held accountable for their fees. Family law should be like medical-legal law...lawyer gets a percentage of what the settlement is...bad settlement?...no money. Family law is highway robbery of an often vulnerable group of people who have no where else to turn and are filled with fear of loosing their children or their homes. No where except in Family Law do you fork over a 10,000 retainer with absolutely no guarantee that the work provided will get you further to your goal. No other profession is so unaccountable for the services provided. My lawyer was knowledgeable and professional but did nothing to advance the settlement. Sorry but when I'm paying you 500 bucks an hour...get the job done...and I don't care if the other side is unreasonable or stalling or lying or cheating...I'm paying you to be better than that and still get the job done. I think unbundled services is the way to go...pay for exactly what you need...and then get out. The whole family law system needs an overhaul...it's a monopoly that needs to be broken down. Remember when Bell owned all the telephone lines and long distance was $1.50 a minute...back in the 70's?? 10 years from now we are going to look back on Family law and see the fees these lawyers charge as criminal.

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    • #17
      ^^^ Absolutely brilliant! they would work for a commission, that way it gets done FAST! I also agree 100% with the Bell telephone example.

      Lawyers "a la carte".

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      • #18
        Originally posted by annapurna66 View Post
        I don't think that lawyers are held accountable for their fees. Family law should be like medical-legal law...lawyer gets a percentage of what the settlement is...bad settlement?...no money. Family law is highway robbery of an often vulnerable group of people who have no where else to turn and are filled with fear of loosing their children or their homes. No where except in Family Law do you fork over a 10,000 retainer with absolutely no guarantee that the work provided will get you further to your goal. No other profession is so unaccountable for the services provided. My lawyer was knowledgeable and professional but did nothing to advance the settlement. Sorry but when I'm paying you 500 bucks an hour...get the job done...and I don't care if the other side is unreasonable or stalling or lying or cheating...I'm paying you to be better than that and still get the job done. I think unbundled services is the way to go...pay for exactly what you need...and then get out. The whole family law system needs an overhaul...it's a monopoly that needs to be broken down. Remember when Bell owned all the telephone lines and long distance was $1.50 a minute...back in the 70's?? 10 years from now we are going to look back on Family law and see the fees these lawyers charge as criminal.
        Parts of this I agree with, other parts I don't.

        I work in the legal industry. Almost all of the lawyers I have worked with provided value to their clients.

        As for getting the job done, they can only do so much. They are subject to the legislation, the courts, their own clients and other facts that sometimes impede their ability to keep things moving.

        No where except in Family Law do you fork over a 10,000 retainer with absolutely no guarantee that the work provided will get you further to your goal.
        This is where I really disagree. In no other line of work do you have people so emotionally invested and irrational, that come in with the most ridiculous of demands and expect instant results. I've seen first hand some of the stuff that family lawyers have to put up with. It would be akin to going into your doctors office and saying "remove this good leg of mine. I hate it because of birth mark I can barely see". The doctor would tell the person "No" and then "get counseling". But we have the expectation that the lawyer should do as we say, notwithstanding how stupid the request is.

        I won't say that lawyers don't have their part in the failings of the family law system. But the clients are the bigger issue. Most can't get over their own issues and emotional baggage to actually help themselves, their lawyers and the legal process. If clients would learn to check their emotions at the door, I think everyone would see a much smoother legal process.

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        • #19
          Lawyers are dealing weith a scared/captive market.

          In Quebec, the ability to get unbundled services is very limited. I consider this to be a sign that the lawyers are exploiting the bureaucracy of the legal system to oblige you to pay for filing documents, writing simple things etc...

          I wish I could find a good solid lawyer that I can consult every once in a while to make sure I am on the right track and review my motions.

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          • #20
            I agree - in Quebec it's virtually impossible to retain a lawyer only for 'consultation' purposes. They take control of the case or refuse it. Often times it's their assistant who does 90% of the paperwork though they charge the full lawyers fee ... outrageous.

            Is it any wonder that in Quebec self-reps are on the increase? I don't know what the statistics are in other provinces?

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            • #21
              I sold my house recently, and had an interesting chat with my realtor about just how different the real estate pay system is from the lawyer pay system.

              A realtor does a LOT of work up front for no payment, for perhaps months at a time, but collects a significant amount when the house sells. Their total fee is a set % of the sale price and completely unrelated to how much effort the house took to sell. You never really get to know how much effort they put in behind the scenes or what they actually do or how much they may be slacking. If the house never sells, or the seller changes their mind and takes the house off the market, the realtor is out lots of their time and energy and earns zero.

              A lawyer takes a LOT of money at the beginning, and gets more money if it runs out before doing any further work. They have an hourly rate, and the more effort they put in, the more money they demand in compensation. You have no idea what the final fee will come to. You get an itemized list of every single damn thing they charge you for, even if you don't understand it. If you lose or settle without your lawyer's help, you're still paying their fees.

              Can you imagine if you had to give a retainer to your real estate agent just to get them to list your house? If, the longer it took to sell, the more open houses they hosted, the more schmoozing they did, the fee climbed higher and higher? If you regularly got a detailed bill listing every little thing they did and time they spent to sell your house? If you were out thousands and thousands of dollars before ever seeing a sold sticker go up, and there was no guarantee it would even happen?

              Can you imagine if you only paid your lawyer a set % of your settlement when the whole thing was finally over, no matter how hard it was or how long it took? If you didn't have to pay them at all if you lost?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                In no other line of work do you have people so emotionally invested and irrational, that come in with the most ridiculous of demands and expect instant results. I've seen first hand some of the stuff that family lawyers have to put up with.
                No doubt that lawyers have to deal with extremely upset people with unreasonable expectations. My Ex is presently on his third lawyer as the other two were 'dismissed' for not agreeing with his agenda ...

                If a set time to reach settlement were the standard - let's say 6 months from first filling for divorce with no agreement reached - then a trial date should be put on the calendar. This would insure no nonsense negotiations, and better use of the system.

                This would be in the best interests of children who thrive on stability.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rioe View Post

                  A lawyer takes a LOT of money at the beginning, and gets more money if it runs out before doing any further work. They have an hourly rate, and the more effort they put in, the more money they demand in compensation. You have no idea what the final fee will come to. You get an itemized list of every single damn thing they charge you for, even if you don't understand it. If you lose or settle without your lawyer's help, you're still paying their fees.
                  Agreed! No other service provider has this financial advantage. A contractor is paid as the house advances - get the foundations up, get paid, put on the roof get paid, finish the g/d house get paid. If it takes more time than what was agreed upon they are penalized and lose part of their retainer. There is an incentive to respect the clients time.

                  Nobody should have to spend years going through divorce ...

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                  • #24
                    Perhaps to get a lawyer/unbundled services one could check with the small law firms or lawyers who aren't associated with large firms. My lawyer mentioned once to me that he could have gone with a large firm after he graduated but preferred the freedom to set his own rate and essentially run his own business the way he wanted to. He works in a firm with 6 other lawyers (2 senior partners) but has autonomy. Seems to be a good arrangement for him and his clients.

                    On the other hand I think that if I were a lawyer I would be very particular on who I took on as a client. Nightmare client would be a disorganized client who had messed things up royally and then who retained me (on a very limited retainer) to essentially clean up the mess with huge expectations. When a lawyer takes on a case he/she doesn't know what is going to happen in the future. There are too many variables.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Janibel View Post
                      No doubt that lawyers have to deal with extremely upset people with unreasonable expectations. My Ex is presently on his third lawyer as the other two were 'dismissed' for not agreeing with his agenda ...

                      If a set time to reach settlement were the standard - let's say 6 months from first filling for divorce with no agreement reached - then a trial date should be put on the calendar. This would insure no nonsense negotiations, and better use of the system.

                      This would be in the best interests of children who thrive on stability.
                      In Quebec they use provision for fees very liberally to punish people for useless legal fees. The general principle is the husband pays the legal fees mostly unless the wife is crazy and if he is crazy he pays ALL her legal fees.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by HammerDad View Post


                        It would be akin to going into your doctors office and saying "remove this good leg of mine. I hate it because of birth mark I can barely see". The doctor would tell the person "No" and then "get counseling". But we have the expectation that the lawyer should do as we say, notwithstanding how stupid the request is.
                        Actually the difference between family lawyers and physicians is this. The physician says NO...get counselling. The Family lawyer says..."well...lets see what we can do about your unreasonable request. Let me write up some documents about it, serve some papers around it, maybe have a deposition on it, spend some useless time in a case conference discussing it, maybe prepare a motion for it , attend a few fruitless 4 way negotiations around it....and then after I've charged you $50,000 for the above....I'll tell you that I can't really help you with your request....and I'll drive away in the new Audi that you just bought me."

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                        • #27
                          The problem with Family Law Lawyers as I found out. ......They prey on the emotions of a client. For most people it's their first divorce, so everything is spiraling. No one wants to back down. Once you come to your senses, many months has passed and you are out thousands.

                          Learned a great lesson from a friend who is a copper. "When you get enough people in a room, someone is slightly off center." Same holds true for lawyers.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by annapurna66 View Post
                            Actually the difference between family lawyers and physicians is this. The physician says NO...get counselling. The Family lawyer says..."well...lets see what we can do about your unreasonable request. Let me write up some documents about it, serve some papers around it, maybe have a deposition on it, spend some useless time in a case conference discussing it, maybe prepare a motion for it , attend a few fruitless 4 way negotiations around it....and then after I've charged you $50,000 for the above....I'll tell you that I can't really help you with your request....and I'll drive away in the new Audi that you just bought me."
                            If they've told you it is unreasonable and that they don't recommend it and you still tell them to do it, that is your fault, not theirs.

                            The lawyers are supposed to advocate for their client, and in the process, give their opinion on reasonableness and chances of success. If your lawyer tells you your chances of success suck because your being a complete moron, but that they can still proceed if you want....there is no one to blame for the bills but yourself.

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                            • #29
                              Lawyers are the second most mistrusted profession on earth...only second to cab drivers. True fact. Maybe its because of their stellar advocacy! lol Legal profession needs an overhaul. Just my opinion based on 3 1/2 years spent in court...but I'm sticking to it.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                                If they've told you it is unreasonable and that they don't recommend it and you still tell them to do it, that is your fault, not theirs.

                                The lawyers are supposed to advocate for their client, and in the process, give their opinion on reasonableness and chances of success. If your lawyer tells you your chances of success suck because your being a complete moron, but that they can still proceed if you want....there is no one to blame for the bills but yourself.
                                And what about all the useless unenforceable orders, what about that, you don,t understand the point to these complaints. You just don,t comprehend, you just don,t get it. I"m afraid you may never be of a useful progression within the confines of family law. Good people are forced to fight without logic.

                                If lawyers were free then we could have lies and justice , now we have lies and bankruptcy. Good people are fighting for their children and you call them morons. Who are the morons? Is it the ones with free LAO, is it the ones who send in their rottwiller lawyers to accuse you without evidence. Lawyers are all trying to win at all costs. That,s the point to this thread. Intelligent people see this, now you do not have to be intelligent to use this to your advantage, but being intelligent will certainly help you take advantage of the very weak and unaccountable system. Thank you to the stupid who push their luck to far.

                                Courts are to provide justice and the intelligent people will prevail as there are more of us out there who comprehend the flaws of our system and will fight for Justice.
                                Hammer think about all the stupid laws of our past we no longer use, Think with your brain!!!
                                Last edited by Franklin; 06-17-2015, 08:23 PM.

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