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  • Self Representation or Hybrid Rep

    I personally am self representing, but I have a lawyer retained for counsel. I'm doing the majority of the paperwork/legwork to keep costs down. I'm wondering whether it would be advantageous to change to full representation, yet still do most of the leg work.

    In both cases the lawyer will want to review some of the paperwork you draft. The main difference would be that the lawyer would be present at court proceedings. I realize this adds extra cost, but would it be worthwhile in terms of saved time spent in front of the judge (since I have little experience interacting with these types of people).

    From peoples experience how much actual time was spent in court (whether it be trial or not) versus outside time filing and serving?

    I've noticed that the courts don't always meet their scheduling (10am case conference actually didn't get called until 10:45). Do you pay your lawyer for that 45 minutes of waiting? I assume the answer is yes.

  • #2
    The answer to your question - how involved should your lawyer be - is very dependent upon both your talents (public speaking and analytic thinking) and the complexity of the issues.

    The more complex the issues, and the more involved the lawyer is, the more value they may add. For example, if you had a complicated file to a lawyer ten minutes before a motion, you save on costs but risk failure at court.

    Some court appearances require more experience than others. Short of being pushed down a flight of stairs, it would be challenging for anyone to screw up a first appearance date (FCDC). A trial, or complicated motion, can be very difficult for people who are inexperienced.

    In general terms, the amount of time spent preparing for a court appearance is related to the complexity of the issues, and whether other related work has been done. For example, a case conference may require less time preparing than actually attending the conference whereas a motion or trial may see 2-5 hours preparing for each hour in court.

    It is expected that a lawyer will bill time "door to door" - from when they left their office until when they return. If you spend an hour chatting in the hallway at the courthouse while waiting for your matter to be heard, that time is part of the cost of the motion.

    Comment


    • #3
      Based on what you've said in regards to my particular situation (relatively uncomplicated) I think it would be best to maintain self representation until the matter heads for trial. I can always have my representation status changed before an actual trial so she can step in for the hard stuff.

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with Orleans lawyer. My matter was very complex. I held my own thru basics of assignment court, drafting of simple motion and settlement conference. I got crushed during a full day motion which got side tracked to trial. I was asked to make difficult decisions on credibility and then later minutes of settlement that I did not fully understand. It is very easy to find oneself bullied by opposing counsel ( and yes sometimes even by the judge) and to agree to things you might not fully understand. I used a lawyer for the difficult things ( factum, book of authorities etc). It still cost me $$$$. My lawyer would not attend court without doing all the prep work himself...and prep is pricey. Either way it's expensive.

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        • #5
          Yeah I got a very poor impression of the judge residing over the case when I attended the case conference adjournment, and it's given me an overall negative outlook of the legal system. It's too bad your lawyer would not allow you to draft most of the literature, and just review it / modify it to suit him/her.

          Comment


          • #6
            until the matter heads for trial.
            If it is not complicated there is no reason for it to head to trial. Why is it not settling?

            My lawyer would not attend court without doing all the prep work himself...and prep is pricey
            It is uncommon for a competent lawyer to trust laypeople to draft material to the quality that is expected.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by OrleansLawyer View Post
              If it is not complicated there is no reason for it to head to trial. Why is it not settling?


              It is uncommon for a competent lawyer to trust laypeople to draft material to the quality that is expected.
              You can get the entire story in this thread (ongoing):
              http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...-record-17460/

              Why is it not settling? It's too early to tell since my case conference has been rescheduled for the beginning of June, but I'm basing this opinion on the uncooperative behavior from my ex since we separated.

              Agreed about the reasoning around not trusting 'lay people' to draft materials. However some of us are scientists and engineers, and can figure these things out easier than others...at least to the point where a lawyer can massage it before filing.

              If the going rates for retaining a lawyer were a bit more competitive with other professions I would be more than happy to have them do everything. It's simply not possible for some of us, even if we have good jobs.

              Comment


              • #8
                I have always been represented by legal counsel. My ex, on the other hand, has been self-represented at times, semi-represented at other times and fully represented by good and not-so-good counsel.

                My experience was that when he was self-represented he made many mistakes filing. This wasted my lawyer's time. Judges were exceedingly lax in allowing him to reschedule matters while he was self-represented. Judges were not very flexible when his lawyer tried to reschedule.

                Something else to consider is that often these lawyers know each other on a somewhat amicable basis and can simply pick up the phone and coordinate dates with opposing counsel without a lengthy letter-writing process. You might simply ask your lawyer if he/she knows OC. Then ask the next question - can you please phone or email OC and coordinate a date?

                Lousy lawyers use the unnecessary back-and-forth letter writing process simply as a means to increase billable hours. You have to keep a close eye on all correspondence that is originating from your lawyer's office and, of course, request detailed monthly billing so you don't get any surprises.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by arabian View Post
                  I have always been represented by legal counsel. My ex, on the other hand, has been self-represented at times, semi-represented at other times and fully represented by good and not-so-good counsel.

                  My experience was that when he was self-represented he made many mistakes filing. This wasted my lawyer's time. Judges were exceedingly lax in allowing him to reschedule matters while he was self-represented. Judges were not very flexible when his lawyer tried to reschedule.

                  Something else to consider is that often these lawyers know each other on a somewhat amicable basis and can simply pick up the phone and coordinate dates with opposing counsel without a lengthy letter-writing process. You might simply ask your lawyer if he/she knows OC. Then ask the next question - can you please phone or email OC and coordinate a date?

                  Lousy lawyers use the unnecessary back-and-forth letter writing process simply as a means to increase billable hours. You have to keep a close eye on all correspondence that is originating from your lawyer's office and, of course, request detailed monthly billing so you don't get any surprises.
                  Thanks for the very good advice. I know already that my lawyer (with whom I'm meeting for the first time this week) knows the OC. I'll make a note to ask her whether she can simply call to schedule as opposed to writing letters every time we need to schedule something.

                  I am hoping that she will not be lousy, based on the fact that she was recommended by other local law firms during my search for counsel.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A Trial costs 20 to 30 grand with a lawyer and if you lose it's 20 to 30 grand on top for the other sides lawyer.

                    I use the analogy if I screw up I save 50 percent of overall costs and I make dam sure I minimize the other sides "cost award" by offers to settle and looking reasonable

                    If your already at Court on "simple matters" there's a good chance you'll be back again either you learn the process or go broke with lawyers.

                    it's easy for people with a lot of cash to get a lawyer sit back and enjoy the ride but they don't learn anything. A self rep that's smart with endless non billable time can become a real force in Court that makes people with lawyers that don't learn anything think twice about kissing away thousands of dollars

                    Keep a lawyer around just for going over settlements and giving advice or direction

                    just my thoughts anyways

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MrToronto View Post
                      A Trial costs 20 to 30 grand with a lawyer and if you lose it's 20 to 30 grand on top for the other sides lawyer.

                      I use the analogy if I screw up I save 50 percent of overall costs and I make dam sure I minimize the other sides "cost award" by offers to settle and looking reasonable

                      If your already at Court on "simple matters" there's a good chance you'll be back again either you learn the process or go broke with lawyers.

                      it's easy for people with a lot of cash to get a lawyer sit back and enjoy the ride but they don't learn anything. A self rep that's smart with endless non billable time can become a real force in Court that makes people with lawyers that don't learn anything think twice about kissing away thousands of dollars

                      Keep a lawyer around just for going over settlements and giving advice or direction

                      just my thoughts anyways
                      It's astonishing that trial costs so much. Humor me. What happens if you lose a trial and have no way of paying the $50k+? Bankruptcy? Most middle class and lower could not make that money come out of thin air, and it would feasibly take years to be able to pay it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That's reassuring. IF you stipulate you want detailed monthly billing that will send a message to her that you aren't gullible. Make sure you have a lawyer who is willing to represent you in court, should the need arise. I've read several posts on this forum of horror stories where people retain lawyers only to find out, many months later, that the lawyer "doesn't do court room stuff" if you can imagine!

                        Of course the best thing is to settle things out of court as quickly and efficiently as possible. Also, if you are going to court on a regular basis, make sure the lawyer addresses costs each and every time if at all possible. This was the failing of my lawyer (who was excellent in every other way). I ended up winning 90% of the time but in the end I was awarded a paltry amount (IMO) for costs.

                        You can save on legal costs by: not calling or emailing unless absolutely necessary (inquire the rate for that as it is often different than court appearance rate); being well-organized and sending in material lawyer requests in a timely manner PRIOR to meeting with lawyer; self-educating yourself on Rules of Court. When I was first out-of-the gate on my divorce I was faxing my lawyer 4 or 5 times a week (ridiculous really). I wasn't aware of this forum which is a fantastic resource.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lawyers are business men/women. No one goes into business intending to lose money. Most lawyer would require a sizeable retainer before proceeding to trial. If the parties have a matrimonial home where there is plenty of equity the lawyers have an eye to that asset.

                          I personally think that people who have less money get better bang for their buck as the lawyer knows at the start that there are limited resources. Just my personal feeling, no facts to back this up with.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by arabian View Post
                            Lawyers are business men/women. No one goes into business intending to lose money. Most lawyer would require a sizeable retainer before proceeding to trial. If the parties have a matrimonial home where there is plenty of equity the lawyers have an eye to that asset.

                            I personally think that people who have less money get better bang for their buck as the lawyer knows at the start that there are limited resources. Just my personal feeling, no facts to back this up with.
                            Were you able to settle out of court? I think that is the most rational solution to my situation. I'm just not getting any cooperation from the ex. I am hoping her lawyer or the judge will wake her up to the reality of what she's doing (maybe during the case conference?).

                            My response to the court application she submitted is asking for costs. I thought that would be a little motivation for her to cooperate. Apparently not.

                            Anyway I'm guilty of changing the scope of this thread. From the responses I've gotten I think I'm safe self representing with aid of a lawyer for some time.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              My divorce was done through a binding JDR (Judicial Dispute Resolution). It relatively simple and inexpensive. We had one useless 4-way meeting and 9 months later, after JDR, I was divorced. I really don't know why more people don't use binding arbitration. I don't have any experience in child-custody matters but from what I've observed there is alot of wasted time with all of the conferences. Most people just want to present the facts and have someone make a decision as they can't come to an agreement on their own. What a total waste of time and money.

                              My lengthy litigation was due to my ex wanting to overturn the SS quantum. He tried many times but was never successful, thus the resultant revolving door syndrome in court. We are hopeful that we won't have to go back to court for a year. Normal people exchange financials and sign consent to adjust things. Not my ex!

                              Comment

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