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  • #46
    Originally posted by Soiled View Post
    I highly disagree about it being a matter of personal accountability. If knowledge around the consequences of a failure of marriage was on the same level as the consequences for theft, murder, etc, then yes it's fair game to say it's personal accountability for making a poor decision on a marriage partner.

    Education about spousal support only seems to come from law school, personal experience, or the experience of family/friends. To suddenly hold somebody who had no idea about it legally obligated to financially support another person who should be perfectly capable of fully supporting themselves is just ludicrous. Even more so when the person receiving the support ended the marriage of their own accord, whether through cheating or just one day deciding they're done with it.

    And yes, this is a failing of the system, the courts, and the judges, as its created a punishment/reward without educating the populace properly before they enter into a marriage. I won't touch on blaming the female gender as I've attempted to make everything gender neutral and I don't care to open that can of worms.

    As for the marriage reviews every five years, if society insists on things like spousal support, then yes absolutely. Any other long term contract (mortgage, cell phone, insurance, etc) we enter into gets reviewed and or renewed every few years, absolutely marriage should be the same.

    Happy 5th anniversary! If you choose to stop the marriage now you can escape with half your financial assets and pay $800/mth in spousal for the next 2 years. Or should you agree to a further 5 years of marriage your obligations may increase to the same amount but for 5 years. Romantic! But at least nobody can say they were blindsided by it then.
    You tremendously overthink accountability. It isn't dollars and cents, it's a true understanding that you did this to yourself. Accountability for the crap-ass position you have found yourself in, which has spousal support as a consequence. Spousal support didn't ruin your marriage, that comes afterwards.

    That, no matter how much you bitch and gripe, is not the responsibility of spousal support guidelines or the law.

    If independence in a woman is what you expect then you don't marry and continue to support dependence, as an example.

    It's accountability for the decision to marry that particular person who is causing this particular problem that one must hold themselves accountable for. If you don't admit you made a poor choice in a partner, you're doing it again and again and again.

    Comment


    • #47
      Many men opt for the "little woman at home barefoot and pregnant" and women brag "I can bring home the bacon and serve it up in a pan.... I'm a woman" as a badge of honour until the marriage ends and the novelty has worn off. Nobody warned them about spousal support? Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

      I wonder how many payors (male and female) have had a discussion with their teenage children TODAY about responsibilities of support (child and spousal)? Perhaps the current sex-education program, which I understand is quite explicit, should be expanded to include a section on CONSEQUENCES?

      Comment


      • #48
        Arabian - you are complaining about execution. If the state were god it would take the same amount of money from Self-employed as wage earners.

        Not everybody is catholic, the point is that Quebec gives you the choice whereas in the rest of Canada it is a 2 year trap.

        Non-compensatory SS is meant to give the ex-wife as close to the life as possible she had before the marriage ended. That is the exact goal.

        SAHM contribute very little to the career the man has. It isn't because one person is a better SAHM that the man has a better or worse career. I don't care how good the lasagna is, the gabage man isn't becoming a doctor.

        White people don't get married anymore nor have children (-ve population growth), it is only first generation divorcees, and once that passes they won't get married either.

        My parents had no idea about SS and CS, they are shocked by the whole thing. Everybody in my family thinks it is criminal, "Your ex-wife sits at home and you go to work to support her" ..... My kids are going to know very clearly what marriage really means - it isn't "Till Death till you part"

        Now it is the:

        "The bitch can sleep with your best friend, take your house, take your kids, take your money and the government is going to do it for her.... so watch the fuck out, send the tramp to work and don't have kids so unless you are willing to give he 15% of your gross/pay per child for 25 years."

        ALMOST NOBODY WOULD TREAT MARRIAGE THE SAME ONCE THEY KNOW ABOUT SPOUSAL SUPPORT.

        Comment


        • #49
          Spousal Support = not a natural consequence of divorce. It is an artificial BS government prom

          Death while driving drunk = natural consequence.

          Do you see the difference?

          I'm not answering this thread anymore, general population reading this can understand the truth - support recipients just refuse to believe.

          Comment


          • #50
            One of the qualities I admire most in other people is the ability to take responsibility for their mistakes. This includes the mistake of marrying the wrong person. As others have pointed, unless someone held a gun to your head, you chose to marry this person, and chose to have children with him/her and chose to allow a situation in which one spouse had a stronger workforce attachment than the other. And now you're living with the consequences of these choices. That doesn't mean you have to love the consequences, or that you can't negotiate them. However, it's really pointless to complain about how it isn't faaaaair and how you're being screwed by the legal system, when nobody but you made the choices that got you here.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by MS Mom View Post
              You tremendously overthink accountability. It isn't dollars and cents, it's a true understanding that you did this to yourself. Accountability for the crap-ass position you have found yourself in, which has spousal support as a consequence. Spousal support didn't ruin your marriage, that comes afterwards.

              That, no matter how much you bitch and gripe, is not the responsibility of spousal support guidelines or the law.

              If independence in a woman is what you expect then you don't marry and continue to support dependence, as an example.

              It's accountability for the decision to marry that particular person who is causing this particular problem that one must hold themselves accountable for. If you don't admit you made a poor choice in a partner, you're doing it again and again and again.

              You've made a few incorrect assumptions about me and use them as a launching point...

              I'm am not a spousal support payor. My ex and I had a a similar enough income that the child support calculation for 50/50 with two children was $1/mth to her. Though I did learn all about it when the split happened as she decided her best course of action was to move clear across the country to where her family is from. Jobs are few and far between there and her plan, as laid out in the papers she served me, was to live off of whatever govt assistance she could get, as well as child support and spousal support. Seems unlikely to succeed, but my lawyer warned me he had seen similar successful scenarios like that in the past, all depends on the judge.

              I had enjoyed this, but as apparently I'm being interpreted as bitching and griping, I'm finished with it. I can have an exchange with the ex if I wanted to receive that sort of response.

              I'll leave this with a final comparison....

              Prenups, divorce agreements and such can all be disputed on the grounds of not understanding it, or not having independent legal advice. Spousal support treats marriage as a contract between two people. It has serious repercussions for the cessation of that contract. Why then is it not necessary to have independent legal advice prior to getting married?

              There's a large difference between personal/spiritual accountability and legal accountability.
              Last edited by Soiled; 08-07-2016, 08:58 PM. Reason: Corrected broke and incomplete sentences

              Comment


              • #52
                Links your statement that "SAHM contribute very little to the career the man has" is merely your personal opinion based on your own perceived situation and nothing more. I could draw you many examples but you would still hold your own biased opinion. Your statement reminds me of a woman I once knew who was quite wealthy and married a fellow who wasn't wealthy. Her husband was given a titled job (VP of something) in the family business. He did nothing besides golf... seriously. He was a SAHD and made supper and oversaw the housekeeper. These two ended up settling out of court. Yes he was compensated handsomely. He will likely receive CS and SS for a very long time. This is not a situation unique to just the male paying the female.

                This forum would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Soiled View Post
                  You've made a few incorrect assumptions about me and use them as a launching point...

                  I'm am not a spousal support payor. My ex and I had a a similar enough income that the child support calculation for 50/50 with two children was $1/mth to her. Though I did learn all about it when the split happened as she decided her best course of action was to move clear across the country to where her family is from. Jobs are few and far between there and her plan, as laid out in the papers she served me, was to live off of whatever govt assistance she could get, as well as child support and spousal support. Seems unlikely to succeed, but my lawyer warned me he had seen similar successful scenarios like that in the past, all depends on the judge.

                  I had enjoyed this, but as apparently I'm being interpreted as bitching and griping, I'm finished with it. I can have an exchange with the ex if I wanted to receive that sort of response.

                  I'll leave this with a final comparison....

                  Prenups, divorce agreements and such can all be disputed on the grounds of not understanding it, or not having independent legal advice. Spousal support treats marriage as a contract between two people. It has serious repercussions for the cessation of that contract. Why then is it not necessary to have independent legal advice prior to getting married?

                  There's a large difference between personal/spiritual accountability and legal accountability.
                  I make no assumptions about you at all.

                  I am merely stating that spousal support is a consequence of divorce. Divorce is a potential consequence of marriage. The mistake that was made was in the marriage, everything else follows that error.

                  What I read from those that gripe about spousal support is that the ex is lazy, refuse to work, likes to sit at home and eat bon-bons. The ex is the same person you married. And it seems that having a stay at home trophy is exactly what the man wants, until he doesn't. Then she's lazy for being all those things that were okay when the married.

                  If you marry a financially independent woman you won't be paying spousal support if you divorce. But, you'll also wash your own floors when you're married.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    So long as the woman provides sex and housekeeping in exchange for financial support and not having to work, the situation is fine. When the sex and housekeeping stop, the financial support should also stop and the working should start. Is that what you are saying?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MS Mom View Post
                      If you marry a financially independent woman you won't be paying spousal support if you divorce. But, you'll also wash your own floors when you're married.
                      I married someone with two university degrees who was working for the school board and on her way to a great career as a teacher. Her salary was the same as mine or higher... until shortly before she decided to divorce.

                      Then she stopped had working and has never returned to the workforce in all these years.

                      You can marry a smart, savvy successful "financially independent woman" as still end up being a sucker and paying for her bons bons. The system is just that rigged.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by FightingForFamily View Post
                        I married someone with two university degrees who was working for the school board and on her way to a great career as a teacher. Her salary was the same as mine or higher... until shortly before she decided to divorce.

                        Then she stopped had working and has never returned to the workforce in all these years.

                        You can marry a smart, savvy successful "financially independent woman" as still end up being a sucker and paying for her bons bons. The system is just that rigged.
                        I thought your ex was unemployed for many years prior to your separation and that you agreed to pay SS until child(ren) were in school. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your old posts from 2012/2013?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I believe it would work both ways. My husband spent most of his salary foolishly over the years regardless of who earned more(it varied throughout the years) leaving me to bear the majority of the financial responsibility.

                          By staying married, tolerating it and not divorcing him, I basically gave my consent in a manner of speaking to his behavior. Now that he is so ill he can no longer work, if I were to divorce him now ( I wouldn't, just being hypothetical), he would certainly be able to take me to the cleaners for spousal support whether or not I thought it was fair and regardless of his being a male and me being female.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by FightingForFamily View Post
                            I married someone with two university degrees who was working for the school board and on her way to a great career as a teacher. Her salary was the same as mine or higher... until shortly before she decided to divorce.

                            Then she stopped had working and has never returned to the workforce in all these years.

                            You can marry a smart, savvy successful "financially independent woman" as still end up being a sucker and paying for her bons bons. The system is just that rigged.
                            You pay spousal support? Or are you considering child support to be "life long support" to the mom like Links does?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Arabian: My former spouse was out of the workforce for only 2 years total, for maternity leave and stress leave. I paid full SS and CS for half the length of the marriage, which corresponded with school starting. It's done now. She planned the divorce for about a year and then stole everything from the bank, changed the locks and tried to have me arrested as a sexual predator. She also ended up keeping everything she stole, ending up with more than 70% of the assets while I became essentially homeless, renting furnished rooms in basements for a few months at a time, sleeping on couches or in later years staying with my girlfriend while paying out most of my salary to my ex. I borrowed vehicles from family to see my son since she refused to drive him. For awhile I had supervised visits in McDonalds.

                              The good news is my SS has been done for a few years and while I will never be able to afford a house or retire, I have a normal standard of living again. I rent a townhouse, a own car and I still have access to my son in spite of her efforts.

                              Personally I think CS table amounts are much too high. My ex collects close to 50% of her income from CS and child benefits. To me this just illustrates that CS is almost entirely being paid for her benefit, not his. She remains single but has a single family home and a new car. She doesn't work outside the home because she doesn't have to or want to. Her custody of our child and access to my paycheque keeps her confortable enough.

                              She was a self proclaimed feminist, determined to be a strong, independent career oriented woman. But two university degrees later (paid for 100% by her parents), she walked away from her pension, benefits and a great salary from the school board to remain a permanent SAHM (paid for 50% by me, some by her parents).

                              Just re-affirming what I said. You can marry a woman with good prospects and earning potential and still end up a chump due to how the system works.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                A few years ago I bought a new condo. Last month we learned that there would be a special assessment because of flaws in the original building. I am going to have to put out a lot of money that I didn't expect to have to put out. I am not happy about this.

                                However, I do not think that I was screwed over by the provincial Condominium Act or that "the system" is out to get condo owners and it's not faaaaair. I recognize that decisions (e.g. to buy a condo) involve risks (e.g. that there might be something wrong with the building that isn't immediately visible) and sometimes the risks don't go my way (e.g. there really was something wrong with the building).

                                Marriage works the same way: getting married entails the risk of divorce, getting divorced entails the risk of financial problems. Just because you weren't thinking about those risks at the time you got married or at the time you agreed that your ex would stay out of the workforce doesn't mean those risks weren't there for anyone to see.

                                Or closer to home: my ex had/has some extremely expensive and unhealthy habits. During the marriage, I subsidized those habits because a greater proportion of my salary went to pay the mortgage, bills, etc, leaving him to spend much of his salary on his own consumption. At the time of separation, I didn't get an extra chunk of equalization in recognition of my higher contribution to accumulating the household wealth, because marriage is regarded as a financial partnership. Looking at it from the purely financial angle, I made a mistake marrying someone who wasn't economically responsible and I paid for it. But that was my mistake, not "the system".

                                Comment

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