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  • HAP or Parental Alientation

    My 8yo son has just began exhibiting HAP/PAS-like symptoms in the past week while at his mother's place. Extreme anger and hate towards me on the phone, refusing to come to my place this coming weekend. (We have week about access and joint custody in a temporary order.)

    The behaviour is new and completely out of the blue. Last week he was with me, and was a complete joy. His usual self, and had a great week in school.

    His words are completely heartbreaking, and I know my ex is considering not bringing him to me on Sunday. From everything I've read so far, allowing him to make this choice is the worst possible option. Discipline must be upheld, and he should hear a consistent message from both of us.

    We do have initial appointments with a therapist lined up, so hopefully we can nip this in the bud before it gets too far out of control.

    Would someone be available for a short chat about this? I'm still reading as much as I can. I could use an ear and an experienced parent, as I'm completely overwhelmed right now. I'm not sure what to expect if/when he is brought to my place this weekend.

    Any number of ways to communicate, whatever you're comfortable with. From email to phone.

    Much appreciated

    Some interesting articles I've come across so far:
    The Dangers of Choice in Alienation/Splitting Reactions
    Parental Alienation Treatment


    Last edited by YYZDaddy; 11-06-2015, 10:19 PM. Reason: Grammar/typo corrections

  • #2
    Children react in different ways. How new is the separation. Are you sure his words and actions are coming from Moms influence?

    Last week my 4 yr old Grandson asked his Mom if his Dad was dead. Apparently at his hockey practice someone said his Daddy must be dead, as he was not on the ice with all the other Daddies. Now he does not want his Mom on the ice with him. She is a hockey player herself but she is the only Mom on the ice.

    It may well be HAP. You need to be calm and consistent in your communication with your son. Its heartbreaking I am sure.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well I can't be certain, as this is so new to me. We've been separated for 5 years (long story), and he has had some behavioural issues while with her, but nothing like this. So extreme and sudden. I'm using 'Parental Alienation' as the symptomatic reaction, not the action from his mother... although I have my suspicions in that department.

      Ex and I have a very toxic relationship, which has gotten worse lately, and that's going to be a huge contributor. HAP may be most likely, as you say.

      Doing my best to think long term and always take the high road. Not easy, but it's the right way to go.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well he most certainly needs to come you, as per your arrangements. Your ex cannot make that decision, nor can an 8 yr old. Just plan some one on one time with your son. Try to communicate with him and reassure him he is not in any trouble, just that you are always there for him and will always be part of his life. I think you really ned to get him to open up and tell you what triggered this.

        But do not let your ex keep him away. That would merely fuel any developing problems.

        Good luck

        Comment


        • #5
          Well she brought him to me, with her parents in the car as well.
          My son resisted getting out of the car, and my ex started screaming at me in front of him, when I tried to get him out.
          Went on for a while with her screaming about kids having a choice, and for me to get another court order (already have one).
          I couldn't get ex to step aside and talk to me, and she just kept yelling.

          To diffuse the situation (since I couldn't physically yank him out), I told my son I would pick him up from school tomorrow. He quietly agreed. He's missed a lot fo school this past week, and I suspect he won't be there tomorrow.

          Luckily I got part of the screaming recorded. I can only hope OCL (already involved) will jump all over this. Ex's family has painted me as the bad guy to him. It's all of them against me.

          Comment


          • #6
            The thing about kids are that they "hear" things when parents least expect it. If he heard mom talking negative it probably confuses the heck out of him.

            I was talking with a kindergarten teacher at my school, as she/s going through a separation. In her case the dad moved to Toronto ..but wants to return to Ottawa to be closer to the kids. Great right? Not to the mom....I was surprised to hear her explain how it was such a bad idea...that she tells her own kids that they should be with their friends and concentrating on other things than the father. It bothered me, a lot. But I lent my ears and didn't give my opinion on the matter.

            My point is that it's the parents responsibility to speak positively about the other parent and encourage their relationship...no matter how much negativity there is. If your ex is comfortable yelling at you in front of the child at exchanges .. I can just imagine what else she may be comfortable doing/saying when you're not there.

            D7's dad just called and I noticed D7 wasn't very in to it. When she got off I let her know that her dad calls her every night and loves her more than anything..and misses her. She called back and told him she loves him and misses him and she couldnt wait to see him. I know that made his night.

            Same with D4 .. I know her mom is one of her hero;s...and rightly so .. its her mom. I would never dare portray her any other way than a hero with D4. How some parents dont get this simple equation will always boggle my mind. These are sensitive, developing brains and they need to hear healthy things and have healthy relationships for optimal development.

            PAS ... not an easy one to prove.

            I could go over some diagnostic criteria, etc, but whenever I decide to study PAS (on my free time), I always refer to this chart:

            CanLII - 2009 CanLII 82663 (ON SC)

            Check out table 15 on the above link. You would need consistent, solid, documented evidence using that chart.

            I'm so sorry this is happening to you, must be terribly hard.
            Last edited by LovingFather32; 11-08-2015, 08:29 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you for this. I've seen it before, and my situation has a lot of check marks against that list.
              I'm avoiding the PAS terminology when I talk to my lawyer, but i do highlight all of the indicators. Going to arrange a meeting with the OCL case worker to see what the options are.

              While proving PAS may be difficult, getting any child psychologist to tell me ex that such behaviour is completely wrong should be easy. Her actions and the symptoms will be mentioned this week at son's intake and assessment.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by YYZDaddy View Post
                Thank you for this. I've seen it before, and my situation has a lot of check marks against that list.
                I'm avoiding the PAS terminology when I talk to my lawyer, but i do highlight all of the indicators. Going to arrange a meeting with the OCL case worker to see what the options are.

                While proving PAS may be difficult, getting any child psychologist to tell me ex that such behaviour is completely wrong should be easy. Her actions and the symptoms will be mentioned this week at son's intake and assessment.
                That's just it .. PAS for some reason has gotten a bad reputation in the medical field for the most part. But so did PTSD and many other's when they were first coined. The paradigm needs time to evolve .. it obviously exists, just too many bottlenecks and loopholes in the DSM for it right now.

                You're on the right track with the child psychologist. PAS can be inferred perhaps without mentioning the PA syndrome itself. Remember, the more recordings, e-mails, and any other documented evidence you have will help your case.

                Remember also, that this could just be a phase. Your son's life has a lot of changes and that could cause turbulence in moods .. especially approaching young adulthood he has that wonderful testosterone migrating through his system, and well as other hormones he's not used to.

                From a psychological standpoint the child may feel guilty .. like the fights are his fault somehow (because he knows he's in the middle). His coping mechanism may be to "project" these feelings negatively on to you to reduce his anxiety .. and possibly is reinforced by mom's positive reaction to him not wanting to see you.

                Anyways .. just some thoughts .. the psychologist may have similar outlooks I'm sure.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by YYZDaddy View Post
                  My 8yo son has just began exhibiting HAP/PAS-like symptoms in the past week while at his mother's place. Extreme anger and hate towards me on the phone, refusing to come to my place this coming weekend. (We have week about access and joint custody in a temporary order.)

                  The behaviour is new and completely out of the blue. Last week he was with me, and was a complete joy. His usual self, and had a great week in school.

                  His words are completely heartbreaking, and I know my ex is considering not bringing him to me on Sunday. From everything I've read so far, allowing him to make this choice is the worst possible option. Discipline must be upheld, and he should hear a consistent message from both of us.

                  We do have initial appointments with a therapist lined up, so hopefully we can nip this in the bud before it gets too far out of control.
                  Hi YYZ

                  I would say to be careful to assume it is alienation. Has your ex demonstrated any inclination for that before?

                  Because the behaviour is so sudden and feels so extreme, I would look towards other issues first. School, peers, etc may be to blame. If he was a "joy" last week and showing hatred this week, it could be something that has happened that is affecting him.

                  Just sit and talk with him in person while doing an activity he likes. I mean, truly sit and talk but listen more and be patient. "Seems like you are pretty angry. I feel angry sometimes."

                  "What was the best/worst things that happened this week?"

                  Often it takes kids a really long time to get to the issue that is really bothering them.

                  It may be something as simple as a peer's comment at school. You are a safe person for your son to vent his anger at. He knows you will love him no matter what. Be there to listen too.

                  Try to think of what you would have done if you had not been separated. How would you have handled it? Sometimes divorce clouds everything. Assume the simplest answer and work from there.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                    I would say to be careful to assume it is alienation. Has your ex demonstrated any inclination for that before?
                    She has, but I have never witnessed it as blatantly as last night. Her screaming at me in front of him that he "is not an object, and has a choice".

                    Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                    Just sit and talk with him in person while doing an activity he likes. I mean, truly sit and talk but listen more and be patient. "Seems like you are pretty angry. I feel angry sometimes."
                    I totally get what you're saying, but as a result of my ex's willingness to enforce his demands, I cannot see him. He vehemently states he wants to be with her, and she just sits back and says, "see?" instead of being an authority figure and working with me to ensure the schedule is upheld. On the legal side, I am working on this as she's in clear violation of an order, but I want to make sure he's going to get the appropriate help too.

                    I truly hope this is just a phase or reaction to a relatively simple event, but my gut is telling me it's much deeper than that. Once I can speak with him, or a counselor can get more out of him, then perhaps we can deal with specifics.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My partner has been going through this since his divorce several years ago. It was happening during the separation and divorce proceedings. You walk a fine line with the PAS theory and youre best to approach the denial of access over accusations of PAS. Get the access enforced and work on the talk therapy. Even if the access is to get him to therapy. Also do a canlii search on alienation cases to understand just how bad it has to get before judicial intervention is involved. Yes hes 8 so he shouldnt have much say and yes your ex is interfering. But playing the PAS card means $$$ and little positive outcomes. Focus on the interference and denial of access first.

                      Also, pick up the book "A Family's Heartbreak" by Mike Jeffries. I read it last year when things got really ugly between my partner and his kids. My partner went into therapy to deal with his emotions and how best to manage the relationship. Unfortunately his kids are older and have a say so fighting it legally is a losing battle. Having the right strategies emotionally will help you with your legal strategy too.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                        My partner has been going through this since his divorce several years ago. It was happening during the separation and divorce proceedings. You walk a fine line with the PAS theory and youre best to approach the denial of access over accusations of PAS. Get the access enforced and work on the talk therapy. Even if the access is to get him to therapy. Also do a canlii search on alienation cases to understand just how bad it has to get before judicial intervention is involved. Yes hes 8 so he shouldnt have much say and yes your ex is interfering. But playing the PAS card means $$$ and little positive outcomes. Focus on the interference and denial of access first.

                        Also, pick up the book "A Family's Heartbreak" by Mike Jeffries. I read it last year when things got really ugly between my partner and his kids. My partner went into therapy to deal with his emotions and how best to manage the relationship. Unfortunately his kids are older and have a say so fighting it legally is a losing battle. Having the right strategies emotionally will help you with your legal strategy too.

                        ^^^ I think this is good advice. If you start talking about PAS, the onus will be on you to demonstrate that this is occurring (very difficult to do as there is still no widely-accepted definition of the term and many people doubt whether it fits the requirements of a syndrome at all). At the moment, you have a volatile 8-year-old and a crappy parent (Mom), which may not add up to alienation.

                        I think you are right to work on getting Mom to respect your parenting time. It will be difficult for Kid to sustain negative and hostile fantasies about Dad when he's spending time with Dad in person and Dad is clearly not acting like a monster. It's good that Kid is only 8 - this would be much more difficult if you have a teenager.

                        Shame on Mom for yelling that "he is not an object, he has a choice". The first part of that is correct - he is not an object, he is a child with two parents, who needs guidance and support to maintain his relationship with both of them. The second part is just wrong - he doesn't have a choice about whether to have a father or not, just like he doesn't have a choice about whether to go to school or whether to brush his teeth. This is what being a child means - sometimes you have to do things which are in your interest, even if you don't want to do them right that moment.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I should have also mentioned that focus should also be on facilitating the relationship. Do a canlii search on that term "facilitate relationship" or "facilitate access". The custodial parent is obligated to do this and if you can prove (key word!!) that your ex isnt doing this, it will help in your argument of interference or denial of access. Facilitating is making sure kid spends time with you. Saying he gets a choice is BS. There have been countless posts in this forum on this idea of choice. Do they let them choose whether they go to school or not?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                            Do they let them choose whether they go to school or not?
                            Ex has been letting son choose. CAS put an end to that, quickly. In my care this year, he has never been late nor missed a day. In hers, 16 missed days, and a dozen late days. All clearly documented.

                            Comment

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