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-   -   Discipline or abuse? (https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22266)

Mom 2 Two 01-14-2019 09:35 AM

Discipline or abuse?
 
My 10 year old son axmen home last night from dads weekend. He was very upset as Dad has pinched him again. The pinching happens when they are out in public and the kids are either goofing around or not listening. Dad leans down and whispers to them swearing to stop as everyone is looking and how embarrassing. Then it’s followed by a hard pinch in the side of stomach or the arm. Well this time dad pinched so hard through a winter coat that red marks were still there 8-9 hours later. My son said this happens all the time but it really hurt bad this time.
Now he says he will refuse to go back to dads on his next access.
I don’t feel like I can email dad about this because the last time I emailed about a safety concern it went ignored. As most of you know we are in litigation and OCL still investigating. Children interviews are done now though. My son already had a hard time with how dad treats him. This just added to the pile of issues. What do I do? ;-(


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Janus 01-14-2019 09:45 AM

I'm not sure how authoritative this site is, but it sounded reasonable (as in, reasonably correct, not as in reasonable to hit your kids). It is from 2012 which is not that recent, so things may have changed.

From https://yourlegalrights.on.ca/sites/...43June2012.pdf

Quote:

The law allows for corrective force that is “transitory and trifling”, which means minor corrective force or the mildest forms of assault. Parents or a person in the place of a parent can NOT:

• use force on a child under 2 years old or on a teenager
• use force that causes harm or might cause bodily harm
• use force because they are angry, frustrated, have lost their temper or because they have an “abusive personality”
• use any object – like a belt or ruler or hairbrush,
• hit a child on the head,
• do anything degrading, inhumane or harmful (this might include taking clothes off or spanking in public), or
• use force on children who have disabilities which make it hard for them to learn.
Offhand, pinching sounds like it would be an acceptable form of discipline.

I would not do it myself, and I would be appalled if my children were subjected to it, but that does not make it illegal.

Mom 2 Two 01-14-2019 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janus (Post 233155)
I'm not sure how authoritative this site is, but it sounded reasonable (as in, reasonably correct, not as in reasonable to hit your kids). It is from 2012 which is not that recent, so things may have changed.



From https://yourlegalrights.on.ca/sites/...43June2012.pdf







Offhand, pinching sounds like it would be an acceptable form of discipline.



I would not do it myself, and I would be appalled if my children were subjected to it, but that does not make it illegal.



Right.. which is my fear... it may not be considered force... but what if child actually refuses to go next access because he is fed up getting pinched? He says he makes sure he walks a meter behind or beside dad so he is able to avoid the pinch...


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Janus 01-14-2019 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mom 2 Two (Post 233156)
but what if child actually refuses to go next access

What would you do if your child refused to go to school?

Mom 2 Two 01-14-2019 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janus (Post 233157)
What would you do if your child refused to go to school?



Obviously I make them go, my kids have never refused to go to school, but a 10 yro who weighs 90lbs is very hard to push and force....

I did have a talk with him saying refusing to go is not an option... and that he needs to tell dad to stop pinching him... or better yet say it out loud when he does it... he just says he is scared of more consequences if he does that.
I understand I can’t protect them or control what dad does on his time for discipline. He is only making his son resent him by his actions.


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rockscan 01-14-2019 10:10 AM

He cant refuse to go. You have to enforce this. You should also be enforcing to him that he and his brother behave themselves the same way they do with you. I understand that boys will be boys and kids don’t always behave but dad is also their parent and has a right to expect a level of behaviour.

Children of divorce have that “freedom” of announcing they will stay home if xyz. They don’t have that freedom.

Best way to handle is to tell son that he needs to behave himself. He can also say to dad “Im sorry I was being bad and I will work harder but could you please not pinch me as it hurts and leaves bruises”.

Mom 2 Two 01-14-2019 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 233160)
He cant refuse to go. You have to enforce this. You should also be enforcing to him that he and his brother behave themselves the same way they do with you. I understand that boys will be boys and kids don’t always behave but dad is also their parent and has a right to expect a level of behaviour.

Children of divorce have that “freedom” of announcing they will stay home if xyz. They don’t have that freedom.

Best way to handle is to tell son that he needs to behave himself. He can also say to dad “Im sorry I was being bad and I will work harder but could you please not pinch me as it hurts and leaves bruises”.



I agree Rockscan... and I did say he needs to behave and listen... except he maintains he wasn’t doing anything. It was his younger brother... and as usual dad blames the older one for everything. Neither child is perfect, but my younger son does pester the older one and dad favours the younger one.

I guess just another thing for me to stay out of... but there was visible marks quite some time later which to me is concerning and excessive.


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rockscan 01-14-2019 10:33 AM

Then you need to have a conversation with your younger son about leaving his brother alone. I have dealt with my nieces and nephews who do the same types of things and have been told by my siblings that I didn’t handle the reprimand they way they would. People do what they think is right in the moment. Your ex isn’t the greatest parent but he is a parent. He handled the situation in the manner he felt best. As much as you feel for your son, this isn’t a hill to die on. Remind him that he may not always like what mom AND dad have to say or how you handle a situation but you both are his parents and he needs to respect that. The day will come that he can stand up to his dad (and it will, I have my own story and have heard stories from friends and relatives) and when that time comes he will feel a bit more empowered. For now he has to deal with the discipline.

Perhaps to counter it you could put kid 2 in a time out or limit screen time at your house to teach him that you will not tolerate the behaviour from him? For instance if they come home having had an issue, you put kid 2 into a time out to enforce that his behaviour towards his brother is unacceptable?

tunnelight 01-14-2019 10:41 AM

Hi there, my child has been pretty pretty badly by her family when younger. On the tighs, stomach, legs, you name it. Leaves nasty red marks.

To me, any pain to a child that leaves a bruise is abuse. I have personally not made an issue to the CAS because CAS never believed any of my other abuse allegations. Also, when mom has pinched the child arm, she called CAS and made child say I grabbed her arm to case worker. I obviously denied it. The cas said even if I had grabbed the child's arm, it was not intentional or abusive. That's as helpful CAS has been to me about the mother's pinching - I become the bad guy.

I personally would call and ask your lawyer, and then the CAS. I know when my child was pinched through OCL investigation, I was told by my lawyer to let it go if it was just once. But to report it if it continues.

You can't deny access, and shouldn't, because your allegations could be found to not necessitate access denial if the CAS is not involved and has no concern.

Tell your child to speak to dad about it. If it continues to be a problem, and child continue to come back with bruises, then make a stink with the CAS. They'll probably just speak to dad, give him some parenting classes to attend, and it will likely be the end of it.

kate331 01-14-2019 10:51 AM

I would be concerned as well. Although the timing is bad, as you are in the mist of a litigation, so accusations run ramped and often go ignored.

My ex was advised by CAS to not spank the children and use time-outs instead. It may help to get some advice from them. I get that you dont want to open a can of worms, but if marks are being left 8-9 hours later, this is obsessive force/abuse and better tools to address their behaviour need to be used.

I understand that some members may think CAS are the "bad guys", but I find them very helpful in leading parents to resources. Perhaps your ex is overwhelmed and some parenting classes or counselling would help.

If a teacher/doctor or mandatory reporter saw marks on a child I bet it would go reported. Then if CAS comes knocking on Mom2two door and asks about the marks, what she suppose to say, "Oh, I knew it was happening and the child was complaining about it, but I sent him anyway without addressing the situation, because "parenting time" outranks abuse".

I totally agree with Tunnelight address the situation. His parenting time wont be in jeopardy over this, but better discipline practices may be the outcome.


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