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-   -   CS Payer parent on Disability (https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24004)

Croa 05-25-2022 04:56 PM

CS Payer parent on Disability
 
hi all,

Wondering if the CS payer parent is on disability and can't even make ends meet with the limited disability income through isnraunce, does payer parent still need to pay CS and how it works? Other than medcial records, does the payer parent need to provide avidence/receipts to show the living cost or other expenses to the court?

Thanks for your time.

rockscan 05-25-2022 05:08 PM

You would need to get an agreement to reduce support based on the updated income. You would calculate what you owed on the previous income for the time period up to the disability, pay those arrears and then start paying the lower amount. When the payor goes back to the increased amount they would increase.

If the recipient doesnt agree the payor would need a court motion.

blinkandimgone 05-25-2022 05:10 PM

The payor would need to apply to have CS adjusted based on their current income. CS can be garnished, even if the payor is on ODSP, so you would want to address this ASAP.

pinkHouses 05-25-2022 05:38 PM

There is a threshold for paying child support.
Fall under it and you don't pay but I would caution that you should pay some amount so that the other parent can claim the kids as dependents without hassle from the CRA, it is situation dependent.
Giving way tax credits to the government seems like a crime against all.

Croa 05-27-2022 02:14 PM

Thank you all, what if there is no ordered amount yet(waiting for a court date). Is that to say must pay CS as long as whatever income is over the threshold? Even though the payer can't carry on own life with the reduced income?

rockscan 05-27-2022 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croa (Post 250726)
Thank you all, what if there is no ordered amount yet(waiting for a court date). Is that to say must pay CS as long as whatever income is over the threshold? Even though the payer can't carry on own life with the reduced income?


There is no temporary order for cs at this time? Has the payor been paying anything? If yes, what was the justification for the amount?

Or if youre asking if they pay the lower amount in advance of a motionthis is tricky as the recipient could register with an enforcement agency if they live in a province with one and they have an existing amount of support owed in a document.

Croa 05-27-2022 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 250727)
There is no temporary order for cs at this time? Has the payor been paying anything? If yes, what was the justification for the amount?

Or if you�re asking if they pay the lower amount in advance of a motion�this is tricky as the recipient could register with an enforcement agency if they live in a province with one and they have an existing amount of support owed in a document.

No temporary order or anything from somewhere other than a court case sitting there. The payer has been paying CS on his own since the court case filed. Now the payer is on disability and realizes it is hard to continue paying a table amount due to medical conditions and other support needs, but want to act in good faith.

rockscan 05-27-2022 03:06 PM

Then reduce the amount based on current income and advise the other parent. Hopefully the person on disability gets better quickly.

Croa 05-27-2022 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 250729)
Then reduce the amount based on current income and advise the other parent. Hopefully the person on disability gets better quickly.

The question is the payer can not even pay reduced table amount based on reduced income, the payer actually can not make his own ends meet with current income, what should payer do in this case? Thanks.

rockscan 05-27-2022 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croa (Post 250731)
The question is the payer can not even pay reduced table amount based on reduced income, the payer actually can not make his own ends meet with current income, what should payer do in this case? Thanks.


Unfortunately they still have to pay support. The only people who dont are on welfare. If the payor declares hardship then all expenses will be scrutinized included any extras like cel phone, cable, internet etc.

It sucks and I know this first hand as my husband had to dig into savings to pay cs while he was on EI but there is little sympathy.

Croa 05-27-2022 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 250732)
Unfortunately they still have to pay support. The only people who don�t are on welfare. If the payor declares hardship then all expenses will be scrutinized included any extras like cel phone, cable, internet etc.

It sucks and I know this first hand as my husband had to dig into savings to pay cs while he was on EI but there is little sympathy.

So if the payer provides sufficient evidence/receipts to support the hardship claim, the table amount could be adjusted or waived? Otherwise have to pay a table amount? Does paid in cash count? Many thanks.

rockscan 05-27-2022 04:14 PM

Never pay in cash. Ever. You always have a receipt that it was paid.

You would have to provide an updated financial statement to the court as part of your case showing all your expenses. That will be scrutinized by the opposite side. Any and all expenses that are deemed frivolous will be argued.

From there the judge will decide if its hardship and/or what should be paid. More than likely something will have to be paid.

Croa 05-27-2022 05:18 PM

I meant some expenses paid in cash no receipts, can those kind of expenses included in the financial statement? Can etransfer/bank account transactions be used as evidence for expenses? Can repayment of personal borrowing/agreement be expense as well? Thanks.

rockscan 05-27-2022 07:17 PM

What expenses are you paying? You either pay spousal and/or child support and a portion of section 7 but nothing else.

Croa 05-27-2022 09:21 PM

I am talking about payer's living expenses on financial statement. Will the court request evidences for expenses when come to arguments of undue hardship? There is no receipts for some expenses as some of them paid in cash or other ways. Will repayment of personal borrowing be supported as payer's expense at court? Bank records are available.

pinkHouses 05-27-2022 10:07 PM

I am not a lawyer and certainly don't have a lot of experience on this.
The rulings also change 2 years ago may not be relevant today.

The late Cindy Blatchford did series on how guys don't do so well in family court. She did write a piece on a guy that....well he couldn't pay the child support and was dirt poor. He never got a break.

In this case link the father had their s7 reduced. Base child support remained the same. He had a claim for undue hardship:
https://canliiconnects.org/en/commentaries/40144

This will help answer your question on receipts, there are references in that ruling to reducing CS, they were on ODSP: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2018/2018oncj921/2018oncj921.html

Child Support is one of those sacred cows, not to be messed with so yeah they are going to want evidence for expenses when undue hardship is being claimed. I mean if you are saying you spend $400/month on rent and $200/month for food they will likely believe you.


Unable to afford living expenses that is a relative term. Having to pay for items in cash and not having receipts, judges do not like people that avoid taxes or don't file their taxes.
Here is a link to the Federal guidelines for undue hardship:

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/...p/v2/v2_4.html

If you are only getting $10K on disability insurance then you fall below the table amount.

If you go through that stuff and find something more definitive than our shoulder shrugs etc. it woudl be good to hear back from you!

rockscan 05-28-2022 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croa (Post 250739)
I am talking about payer's living expenses on financial statement. Will the court request evidences for expenses when come to arguments of undue hardship? There is no receipts for some expenses as some of them paid in cash or other ways. Will repayment of personal borrowing be supported as payer's expense at court? Bank records are available.


Because you swear an oath that the financial statement is true they dont require proof. Normal household expenses are permitted regardless of how you pay them. For instance heat, hydro etc.

Croa 05-28-2022 02:39 PM

how about other expenses, personal support, transportation, etc. due to medical conditions? Getting help from friends for daily life, compensate friends in some ways as appreciation. Thanks.

rockscan 05-28-2022 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croa (Post 250746)
how about other expenses, personal support, transportation, etc. due to medical conditions? Getting help from friends for daily life, compensate friends in some ways as appreciation. Thanks.


You dont pay for charity and you would claim the transportation and medical devices but if you are on workplace sponsored disability, those things should be covered. If you are government disability, like ODSP then I dont believe support is paid. BUT you have to prove you absolutely cant work.

StillPaying 05-28-2022 03:02 PM

What was your income.
What is your income.
What's the access schedule.

Yes people on disability still pay support.
Your option is undue hardship, which is highly unlikely.

Croa 05-28-2022 03:28 PM

I am asking this for a friend on long term disability, he is receiving LTD income from insurance company. Because of his medical conditions, his drivers license is suspended, and his doctor has also suggested personal support for his daily life. I often help him with transportation, grocery, Doctor's appointments, communication, etc., he sometime pays my gas, bills, cash, etc. He wants to put those on his financial statement and wanted to know if it would be permitted in court or need any proof for it. Thanks again.

StillPaying 05-28-2022 04:20 PM

His financials were submitted with his application/response. It would include all income and expenses. However, he has an income and will pay support based on it if he's lucky. Otherwise it could be imputed for more. Again- highly unlikely to qualify for undue hardship while on LTD and receiving benefits. Children would come first.

rockscan 05-28-2022 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StillPaying (Post 250750)
His financials were submitted with his application/response. It would include all income and expenses. However, he has an income and will pay support based on it if he's lucky. Otherwise it could be imputed for more. Again- highly unlikely to qualify for undue hardship while on LTD and receiving benefits. Children would come first.


If its a change of circumstances he would do a new financial statement. That would include any expenses as well as a status on what the timelines are for treatment or recovery.

Child support is normally priority but I have also seen people on disability given a pass.

pinkHouses 05-28-2022 05:12 PM

Just let them put it on the form.
If the judge says "I don't believe you, let me see those receipts" then they will have to provide receipts, maybe an affidavit from you (?)

If you are doing work for them and they are paying you did you claim it as income on your taxes?

There isn't much of an upside to this.
Are they looking to pay CS based on their LTD income or some lower amount?

gmcode 05-28-2022 05:43 PM

Child support is normally priority

StillPaying 05-28-2022 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 250751)
... as well as a status on what the timelines are for treatment or recovery.

Child support is normally priority but I have also seen people on disability given a pass.

Timeline is indefinite dr ex.
Its been more than 6 months, STD.
LTD is available for 2 years, unless catastrophic and permanent.

If you come across any LTD's getting a pass do let us know.

Quote:

Are they looking to pay CS based on their LTD income or some lower amount?
Lower table amount. Not going to happen.
Be a 50% parent and you'll also receive support - but your friend will be paying table based on all his income replacement benefits.

pinkHouses 05-28-2022 06:37 PM

Quote:

Are they looking to pay CS based on their LTD income or some lower amount?
Quote:

Originally Posted by StillPaying (Post 250754)
Lower table amount. Not going to happen.
Be a 50% parent and you'll also receive support - but your friend will be paying table based on all his income replacement benefits.

^^^This.
Sometimes it doesn't happen and some people believe they still have to pay CS based on their full income no matter what.

Not sure what the OPs friend is looking for.
For all we know their LTD is 70K a year and this is all becomes a moot conversation.



Nothing stops them from making a side deal with their ex except their ex.

Croa 05-28-2022 07:13 PM

He is looking for lower amount as his current income is not even enough for himself and has another young child not in his custody needs to support and visit, and access to another child is very expensive because of different cities. Another child also lives with him during breaks, holidays.

rockscan 05-28-2022 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croa (Post 250757)
He is looking for lower amount as his current income is not even enough for himself and has another young child not in his custody needs to support and visit, and access to another child is very expensive because of different cities. Another child also lives with him during breaks, holidays.


Doesnt matter. His obligation is to his first child(ren) and then to the next child.

pinkHouses 05-28-2022 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croa (Post 250757)
He is looking for lower amount as his current income is not even enough for himself and has another young child not in his custody needs to support and visit, and access to another child is very expensive because of different cities. Another child also lives with him during breaks, holidays.

That is a complicated life.

I posted a few links to cases.
Ask him to read the cases and the cases those cases linked.
The expense of having to travel to different cities is reason to reduce child support but I am going to guess and say that is only good for reducing CS to the applicable set of children, definitely a big guess.

If your friend wants to put those expenses on their form then they may chose to do that but it becomes complicated you obtaining income assuming it is not claimed as income.

Your friend may also qualify for legal aid, he can call them and do an intake with them.

Croa 05-28-2022 11:44 PM

This is family law, will I be involved because of helping transportation, grocery sometime? I will definitely claim tax if officially provide services. Does he have to list all people helping him in the court documents? Thanks.

StillPaying 05-29-2022 01:27 AM

You are not a party to the case. Everyone has grocery and transportation costs. He cannot decide to pay you and other friends instead of kids. Get a lawyer.

rockscan 05-29-2022 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croa (Post 250761)
This is family law, will I be involved because of helping transportation, grocery sometime? I will definitely claim tax if officially provide services. Does he have to list all people helping him in the court documents? Thanks.


Either you are helping or you are being paid. It cant be both ways and if he has money to pay someone to take him places, he has money to pay support. As terrible as it sounds, he should be depending on community supports to assist with these expenses instead of paying someone.

This guy has kids from two women, one child does not live near him, he is now on disability. You may be being taken advantage of by someone looking for sympathy claiming things have been unfair. Have you considered that?

pinkHouses 05-29-2022 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StillPaying (Post 250762)
You are not a party to the case. Everyone has grocery and transportation costs. He cannot decide to pay you and other friends instead of kids. Get a lawyer.


Undue hardship claims can certainly include common costs and others you mentioned combined with CS is a burden.
There is also a factor for comparing living standard between the payor and the payee.

StillPaying 05-29-2022 09:38 PM

Not sure why you quoted me.

Yes - undue hardship claims would look at everything but someone making ~70% of their salary, plus other benefits, with reduced expenses in some areas and more in others would not qualify. They have a reduced income and would still pay support on that disability income.


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