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-   -   Other Party Requesting Personal Documents - Do We Oblige? (https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6097)

#1StepMom 01-22-2010 07:48 AM

Other Party Requesting Personal Documents - Do We Oblige?
 
We are on our way to our second settlement conference in 2 weeks.

My husband has served my stepson's mother with 2 offers to settle. She is refusing to take the offers (in terms of child support) into consideration because she is putting a claim forward that my husband is intentionally unemployed/underemployed.

She consistantly "requests" (more like, demands) that he provide her with personal information such as...
  • Copies of the "conditions of employment" for all positions held since October 2008;
  • Copies of ROE's for all positions held since October 2008;
  • Documentation with proof as to why he was terminated or left positions;
  • Medical documentation of back injury;
  • Medical documentation of treatment received including length of treatment and date when treatment was stopped;
  • Full documentation of all job search efforts since October 2008;
  • Copy of our mortgage/lease agreement, indicating monthly cost of mortgage/rent and date when it was signed;
  • Documentation of courses enrolled in since October 2008 and the status of those courses, including date of completion;
  • Full financial statement for October 2008 to present.
She threatens that if he doesn't provide her with this information willingly, she will ask the court that he disclose all the above information to her.

Naturally, this makes us uneasy, and so we have a few questions we hope some of you can answer.

1. Are we obligated to provide her with the above information at her request?

2. Will she be able to get a court order for disclosure of the above information?

3. What if we don't have or are unable to obtain some of the above information?

In the 2nd offer to settle, my husband informed her that it is not unreasonable for him to experience employment fluctuation given the October 2008 market crash, the economic downturn, and the recession which followed and continues to exist.

He let her know that he has made every reasonable attempt to find and maintain a secure full-time position, and will continue to do so until such attempts prove fruitful.

He told her that it is unreasonable to expect that he take time out of his job search to compose full documentation of his job search efforts and seek out documentation irrelevent to his current job search and career-related education.

He informed her that in the 2009 calendar year, despite having held 3 full-time positions, he was unemployed for a total of 4 months, during which time he collected EI benefits for a total of 3 months, leaving only 1 month of unemployment when income was not received.

He even let her know that based on preliminary accounting, his income for 2009 will be in an approximate amount of $25,000, which is not unreasonable given the above information.

We feel that we have already provided her with more than enough information, yet she continues to demand full documentation of the above listed items.

Again...

1. Are we obligated to provide her with the above information at her request?

2. Will she be able to get a court order for disclosure of the above information?

3. What if we don't have or are unable to obtain some of the above information?

Advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

independentgal 01-22-2010 09:04 AM

Are one of you making claim for undue hardship? Or are you requesting reduction in CS?

I would provide it if you have it. It will only help your case, not hinder it in my opinion. I know it is a gross invasion of privacy, but all disclosure generally is. I had to give all sorts of information that just galled me including my phone bills(including personal cell), personal banking records, list of money borrowed from family etc. etc. My ex never provided one of those things. We are going through a trial now, and the fact that he resisted disclosure has caused the judge to make an adverse inference to my ex.

Here is a recent case I found about reduction of child support. The exhusband won a reduction below the guidelines. It may give you some idea of how to go about your situation.

CanLII - 2009 CanLII 72027 (ON S.C.)

#1StepMom 01-22-2010 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by independentgal (Post 33437)
Are one of you making claim for undue hardship? Or are you requesting reduction in CS?

Neither. We're not making a claim for undue hardship, nor are we requesting a reduction in CS. We are asking for CS to be based on the previous year's total income, as depicted on my husband's notice of assessment. We are specifically asking for an order that ALL child support adjustments be based on the previous year's total income as depicted on the notice of assessment. No more of these "whichever method will yield the highest amount at the given time" calculations.

She doesn't want to agree to this because of my husband's employment fluctuation/difficulties in 2009. She claims that his total income on his notice of assessment for 2009 will be "too low" and so she is claiming intentional un/under-employment.

My husband offered her the 3-year average, but she is refusing that as well, and is still claiming intentional underemployment.

We spoke with 2 lawyers about this and they told us that her claim is unreasonable, especially given the current state of the economy. They told us to just ignore her and not provide her with any information that would help her in building her case, as she will obviously use all of it against us... even if it's truthful and reasonable.

We don't want to provide her with the information, but at the same time, we don't want to seem that we're hiding anything. It's quite the dilemma!

wretchedotis 01-22-2010 01:56 PM

What I would do?

Give her a copy of the Notice of Assesment, and then wait and see what a judge says. Maybe even make the point to the judge that you are willing to disclose everything legally needed, and your understanding was that a Notice of Assesment was enough. Ask for his advice on whether or not you need disclose more. Perhaps even have the documents she requests in hand in Court that day, in case he indicates they are reasonable to disclose. Then you can hand them over right then.

Be reasonable and open to direction from the Court, and I suspect you will be fine.

sava123 01-22-2010 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wretchedotis (Post 33452)
What I would do?

Give her a copy of the Notice of Assesment, and then wait and see what a judge says. Maybe even make the point to the judge that you are willing to disclose everything legally needed, and your understanding was that a Notice of Assesment was enough. Ask for his advice on whether or not you need disclose more. Perhaps even have the documents she requests in hand in Court that day, in case he indicates they are reasonable to disclose. Then you can hand them over right then.

Be reasonable and open to direction from the Court, and I suspect you will be fine.

Except you will end up paying her the cost of the motion if judge will rule in her favour about disclose.

#1StepMom 01-22-2010 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sava123 (Post 33454)
Except you will end up paying her the cost of the motion if judge will rule in her favour about disclose.

Based on the advice received from a FLIC lawyer, her so-called "request" is unreasonable. If you read below, you will see exactly what documents she is asking for.

For one, we don't have over half those "documents" nor is my husband willing to waste time attempting to obtain them, or sitting in front of an Excel spreadsheet attempting to formulate them while he COULD and SHOULD be seeking employment or working on his course.

Secondly, why in God's name would my husband want to provide her with documentation/information that will assist her in building her case against him? Because both you and I know that she will find ways to use the information AGAINST him.

You see what I mean?

representingself 01-22-2010 09:08 PM

I am not sure I understand your battle???

I get that your husband had periods of unemployment in 2009, and as such his CS obligation should decrease accordingly.

You asked for a reduction and were denied. In fact, at the court appearance your husband had just started a new job, and the Judge increased his support payments to commensurate with same.

Again, he lost said job, and so on and so forth.

You want ongoing CS payments to reflect his actual income in 2009.

The CP wants CS payments to be based on his current income?

Is he working and making a decent income right now?

If he is, then I don't understand what you want to accomplish...

Lets say (for arguments sake) your spouse made $25,000 in 2009 and as such, he should be paying $211/month.

However, lets pretend he is working now and making a salary which will yield $40,000 in 2010, (= $367 month for CS).

You are asking the court to order CS to be based on the lesser amount?

Did I get any of that right?

logicalvelocity 01-22-2010 09:52 PM

Why not serve and file a sworn financial with respective income tax returns for last 3 years plus any income slips. All the information they need are there. This is the threshold set forth by the Family Law Rules.

logicalvelocity 01-22-2010 09:58 PM

Considering the inconsistency in annual income for the last 3 years --Why not request to vary to an amount consistent with average salary for last three years. Ontario Child Support Guidelines provides such reasonable relief.

billiechic 01-22-2010 11:39 PM

LV I think they have actually offered that and she has refused.

I think having the documents (or as much info as she requested) on hand at the court that day is the best option. Do as LV suggests above and file as much information as the court would normally ask (3 years) prior, and come prepared with as many answers as possible. You never know if the judge will feel you are obligated to share, or not. But it isn't reasonable for her to have all that information. YOu might want to point out how unreasonable she has been in trying to settle this.


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