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Taher 08-05-2020 12:02 PM

Section 7 Expenses
 
Ex didn't and doesn't work. Would start working soon as I understand and would get a child care while working. I am trying to get my head around the section 7 expenses. If she now starts working after living separate for about a year and gets a child care, would that be considered a section 7 expense that I'd have to pay as well? She has the primary custody of the child.
The child didn't use to go for swimming classes/gym etc. before separation. If now she starts taking the child to these classes and places, would these be considered section 7 expenses if these exceed $100?
Child support agreement is in place and the CS as per the guidelines is being paid.

tilt 08-05-2020 01:06 PM

Yes, child care for either of you to work is Section 7 and you usually pay proportionate to income.

Swimming classes and gym would most likely be allowed, as long as your CS payments are super high - I think around $2,000 a month is when Judges say extracurriculars of a few hundred are in clouded in the CS. Something like putting the child in very expensive hockey or a professional-level sport which costs thousands per year is generally only allowed when they were in those activities prior to separation.

Adding new extracurriculars is accepted, especially if the child was young when you separated - some extracurriculars are only available when the child hits a certain age.

Taher 08-05-2020 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tilt (Post 243321)
Yes, child care for either of you to work is Section 7 and you usually pay proportionate to income.

Swimming classes and gym would most likely be allowed, as long as your CS payments are super high - I think around $2,000 a month is when Judges say extracurriculars of a few hundred are in clouded in the CS. Something like putting the child in very expensive hockey or a professional-level sport which costs thousands per year is generally only allowed when they were in those activities prior to separation.

Adding new extracurriculars is accepted, especially if the child was young when you separated - some extracurriculars are only available when the child hits a certain age.

Thanks tilt.
- Does that mean the parent with the child day to day decision making rights can decide to put the child into any extracurricular activity as they feel right without asking the paying parent for consent? And then claim these as section 7 expenses?
- Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I am trying to get my head around this: what if the paying parent does not have enough financial resources to pay additional section 7 expenses such as day care/child care, extracurriculars, etc.?

rockscan 08-05-2020 01:54 PM

Day care for either of you to work is s7.

Other activities are grey. If your child was in activities before separation they may be allowed. Camp during the summer can be considered day care and will be s7.

The term REASONABLE comes up a lot for s7. One parent cannot put kids in a pile of activities just as the other parent cant say no to everything. Would swimming lessons be reasonable? Yes as it relates to safety. Would private swimming lessons be reasonable? No because basic group classes are available.

For daycare remember you pay your share of the net cost. If you ex gets any subsidies and tax benefit from daycare, that comes off the top before you split it.

May also be a good idea to start putting money away for university/college. That will be a big cost in the future and not many plan for it. You can open your own RESP to use for your share of that expense.

rockscan 08-05-2020 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taher (Post 243322)
Thanks tilt.
- Does that mean the parent with the child day to day decision making rights can decide to put the child into any extracurricular activity as they feel right without asking the paying parent for consent? And then claim these as section 7 expenses?
- Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I am trying to get my head around this: what if the paying parent does not have enough financial resources to pay additional section 7 expenses such as day care/child care, extracurriculars, etc.?


You dont have to agree to everything. But if your ex goes to work then you do pay for daycare. The good part is they are earning income and pay a portion as well.

The ex will have to get agreement in writing from you to have it as a s7. They cant simply register and then tell you to pay up.

Taher 08-06-2020 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 243323)
Day care for either of you to work is s7.

Other activities are grey. If your child was in activities before separation they may be allowed. Camp during the summer can be considered day care and will be s7.

The term REASONABLE comes up a lot for s7. One parent cannot put kids in a pile of activities just as the other parent cant say no to everything. Would swimming lessons be reasonable? Yes as it relates to safety. Would private swimming lessons be reasonable? No because basic group classes are available.

For daycare remember you pay your share of the net cost. If you ex gets any subsidies and tax benefit from daycare, that comes off the top before you split it.

May also be a good idea to start putting money away for university/college. That will be a big cost in the future and not many plan for it. You can open your own RESP to use for your share of that expense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 243324)
You dont have to agree to everything. But if your ex goes to work then you do pay for daycare. The good part is they are earning income and pay a portion as well.

The ex will have to get agreement in writing from you to have it as a s7. They cant simply register and then tell you to pay up.

Thank you so much rockscan for the replies. Thanks for taking time for a comprehensive reply. Highly appreciated :)

Janus 08-07-2020 12:15 PM

Section 7 expenses are extraordinary, not extracurricular.

Swimming lesson are not extraordinary, so they would be covered by child support. Olympic training is extraordinary, and as such would not be covered by child support.

Daycare is always considered to be a S7 expense if it is for employment purposes.

Taher 08-08-2020 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janus (Post 243340)
Section 7 expenses are extraordinary, not extracurricular.

Swimming lesson are not extraordinary, so they would be covered by child support. Olympic training is extraordinary, and as such would not be covered by child support.

Daycare is always considered to be a S7 expense if it is for employment purposes.

Thanks Janus. I am however very confused about the daycare considering the following scenario:

- Mother doesn't work before separation. Father works
- Father pays child support as per the guideline income after separation
- Mother demanding full spousal support
- Now say mother starts receiving the full spousal support as well
- Father is hardly going to make both ends meet after the above scenario
- Father doesn't have the child's custody and sees the child over weekends but spends a lot of money on the child's needs while the child is with the father including food, clothes, diapers, play places (paid), etc. and all of this amount is not considered S7 expenses!!
- Then mother starts working and hires a nanny/send the child to daycare and claims that as a S7 expense while already taking all of the above amounts although father does not have resources to pay this anymore

Please let me know what can a father do in the above scenario? If the father cannot pay the S7 expenses for the childcare due to inability/lack of funds, what would happen in such a case? Thanks

tilt 08-08-2020 02:25 PM

If she is working the Sec 7 is proportional to income, including her spousal support and CCTB. You want to be thinking long term that her working is going to decrease your expenses and possibly affect the amount and duration of spousal support she received. Spousal and child support should max out at around 50% of your joint income.

Janus 08-08-2020 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taher (Post 243352)
confused about the daycare considering the following scenario:

I'll go through each part of the scenario:

Quote:

- Mother doesn't work before separation. Father works
S7 expenses are split proportional to income. If the mother does not have an adequate income, father can get income imputed. That said, since mother did not work before separation, she is unlikely to have any meaningful income imputed, so it is probably not worth the fight.

Quote:

- Father pays child support as per the guideline income after separation
Why would that matter?

Quote:

- Mother demanding full spousal support
Why would that matter?

Quote:

- Now say mother starts receiving the full spousal support as well
I'm not sure if "full" spousal support has any meaning. Assuming it means high-end spousal support, why would that matter?

Quote:

- Father is hardly going to make both ends meet after the above scenario
If father is paying table child support, then the father does not have custody. If the father does not have custody, then his living arrangements are not really a concern, since it does not affect the children.

Father can live in a rented basement apartment, for example. Father can also eat more kraft dinner and ramen noodles. Father possibly should have thought of this before giving up custody, because nobody cares about fathers who give up custody.

Quote:

- Father doesn't have the child's custody and sees the child over weekends but spends a lot of money on the child's needs while the child is with the father including food, clothes, diapers, play places (paid), etc. and all of this amount is not considered S7 expenses!!
The child support guidelines assume that if you have less than 40% custody, then you are spending ZERO dollars on the child. Seriously, that is the official presumption of the child support calculations. In theory, the custodial parent is supposed to be providing the NCP with clothing during the NCP's parenting time.

The father probably should stop bringing the kid to play places, parks are free. The father can also start feeding the kid kraft dinner, kid will survive. If the custodial parent won't provide clothing, you can get a full set of clothing at walmart for $8 ($4 bottoms, $4 tops). Buy two sets, and wash them. Alternatively, there are many second hand clothing shops everywhere.

The father needs to understand that he gets absolutely no credit for any money directly spent on the child. It is considered a gift that he freely gives above and beyond his child support and S7 obligations.

Quote:

- Then mother starts working and hires a nanny/send the child to daycare and claims that as a S7 expense while already taking all of the above amounts although father does not have resources to pay this anymore
You again seem to have this weird idea that people care about the father (or more generally, the non-custodial parent). The father definitely has the resources, he just has to reduce his standard of living. The courts do not mind if the father's standard of living is far below that of the mother, because the child's standard of living is equal to the mother's standard of living.

Quote:

Please let me know what can a father do in the above scenario? If the father cannot pay the S7 expenses for the childcare due to inability/lack of funds, what would happen in such a case? Thanks
If the father does not pay the S7 expenses, then the enforcement agencies will take his license, his passport, and will directly garnish the money from any tax refunds or other money that the father might get.

If the father honestly feels that he cannot cut expenses at all, then the father needs to go to court. The father should be aware though that nothing he has said here will be persuasive, and he will lose the money he pays his lawyer, plus the money that the mother paid for her lawyer.


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