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-   -   En route toward Motion to change (https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23780)

mafia007 11-16-2021 03:25 PM

En route toward Motion to change
 
Here we go again. After going into the last thread with the issues on access, I had decided to meet with a lawyer and discuss my case as new evidence showed up in January 2019. So in the Fall of 2019, we decided to serve the other party with a Motion to change for several issues (the Ex not following the final order in place and being difficult in exchanging financial disclosure) and mostly on the delicate question of Parental Alienation.

Throughout the period of May 2018 to recently, there is a lot of new evidence that would support the claim for PA. Also, a lot to demonstrate that the ex had just done nothing to encourage a relationship between father and child. Over that, the siblings being very loyal to their mother and alienating their little sister as well.

Case conference in May 2020, waste of time and only to move forward to next step. Settlement conference in August 2020, the judge ordered an assessment from a clinician mandated by the OCL and stated that this will be heard by way of a trial. The report came back last January 2021 as incomplete because there was no way for the clinician to observe the child with her dad as no access was occuring. No recommendations were made but they could only express the voice of the child. Trial conference in May 2021, not much but to confirm that we do not agree and a trial is still needed. Learn that S21 and D19 will be testifying against me, for their mother. CAS will be testifying on my side. OCL clinician should also be attending and testifying on the incomplete report.

Awaiting trial. Thought it was going to be held this Fall but now it's most likely to happen in the Winter of 2022.

The funny part is that they know we're going to trial and I keep receiving selfish and denigrated messages from D19 showing that there is a lot of tension on the other side. Well they had over 3 years to work it out at their end.

During that whole time, I've been reading a lot on PA and I was able to gather a lot with my lawyer to plead on that subject even though it's very difficult. I am to meet with someone specialize in PA, to go through my case in preparation on this delicate topic.

rockscan 11-16-2021 06:06 PM

Like I said in the other thread, keep us posted. It will be interesting to see if courts make any move on this.

The saddest part is judges KNOW. But they do nothing. How fucking hard is it to find someone in contempt and charge them $1500? Second strike they spend a weekend in jail. This seems to be the biggest problem with casesdragging the kids in.

My husbands agreement has an actual clause in it that neither party will speak despairingly about the other party in front of the kids or allow others to do so. His kids were TOLD so many lies about him and the divorce and then they got shit said about me when we got serious. Yet there was one time ONE TIME that he let his frustration get the better of him where he responded to the garbage they were parroting and he got a nasty email from his ex.

When they were in court a couple of years ago, his ex was blasted by the judge for her bullshit and his kid even submitted an affidavit about him and the judge called her on it outlining what he would ask of the kid in cross examination and STILL nothing. Now his kids have added the judge felt sorry for you to their basket of bullshit.

His lawyer said he has fired clients for pulling anything remotely related to this and he pressed the exs lawyer on the lack of communication.

Its truly terrible and I empathize with any parent who has been cut off from their kids. I have watched my husband cry, sleep walk, break down with the shakes over it. He constantly says he didnt divorce his kids. And why? Because his ex felt he should be punished for not skulking away without his share of their 20 years of assets.

Im truly angry over this bs and if your case makes one little ripple of change I will raise a glass to you. Maybe even send you a bottle of bubbly to celebrate yourself!!

mafia007 11-17-2021 02:01 PM

I am not expecting much from the outcome of this. My children are already too old (S21, D19 and D14) and the damages are irreversible. But since the final order, there is too many incidents that occured which I have kept a copy of the evidence and were filed with the court. I just want to see what the judge is going to say about it. The fact that D19 is asking me why I want a copy of her school program, registration and grades as it's not of my business when actually, it is by order and right now, I'm probably paying CS for nothing as I don't have a proof that she is attending school... all this must stop. I know a judge won't force a relationship but they must do something with a child (and an ex-spouse) with such a bad behavior.

And if not because of PA, has she voluntarily repudiated her relationship with me? Why? How come? For what kind of f**ing BS your mother had pushed into your head for you standing on that position now only after the breakup?

The other thing, I want something to be decided for D14 NOW for when she will turn 18. I don't need to show that I have tried over 4 years from now until she reach the age of 18 that I want a relationship with her. That's why we're in court and I want a relation right now. I'm open, my door is open, my arms are wide open... they are the one who keeps on saying they don't want anything with me. So if that's the case, when she turns 18 and she still don't want contact with me with no f**ing apparent reasons then she would had voluntarily repudiated her relationship with me and that's it.

Why the court is always putting the onus on the rejected parent to show that he had made several attempts and efforts to keep contact with his child? At this point, after 7 years of battle, after this upcoming trial in winter 2022, why I must still demontrate that I am trying to have a relation with D14 until 2024? Why will I keep asking to see her when I know the answer is no? Why will I keep requesting for a visit during the Holidays? Why will I keep sending letters every months during the next 4 years when I know it will be hopeless? Can't the court realize that having our requests to see our children ignored are as painful as having our parenting time denied?

Why if i don't do anything of those during the next 4 years, why are we gonna say that I didn't try? Why I cannot just shout I'm always open, anytime you feel ready to meet just let me know and let her decide for the future? I haven't done enough?

rockscan 11-17-2021 03:58 PM

Youre correct on most of what you said. But there are some big things right now.

If your 19 yo is not in school you should not be paying support for her. If you are not with enforcement (ie FRO), stop paying. Mom will get you proof pretty quick. If you are with FRO (or similar) you need to file a formal request for disclosure. They should be providing a record of enrollment at the very least. Transcripts to prove shes not failing every term. And it should not be your daughter giving you this. Your ex is receiving support, she is the one you deal with.

As for D14you could request an order for reunification therapy as relief. Otherwise there is nothing. You have to pay support for her whether the relationship is broken down or not. My husband learned this. Fighting to stop it is more money than the cost to pay and you would lose. You could get an order saying cs stops at 18 unless you receive proof she is in a meaningful program of study and the ex is ordered to provide proof and transcripts.

This is what sucks for paying parents and leads to stupid fights. My husbands ex danced around for three weeks providing receipts for kids first year of school. It was such monumental bullshit but it was because she estimated costs. Then it went on for two more years including court. Even then she refused to provide full documents and instead filed all these government studies on student diets (!!!). The judge at their motion ordered her to provide everything she had or face dismissal. She finally did.

Now he has another year to pay support for a kid who told him they didnt need a father. Thank god the money goes automatically to avoid a monthly reminder!

arbortrail22 11-17-2021 04:07 PM

"As for D14�you could request an order for reunification therapy as relief."

Is this an easy order to get granted? Any thoughts on the proof needed to support this? If there are no prior therapy records, etc.

mafia007 11-17-2021 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 248189)
If your 19 yo is not in school you should not be paying support for her. If you are not with enforcement (ie FRO), stop paying. Mom will get you proof pretty quick. If you are with FRO (or similar) you need to file a formal request for disclosure. They should be providing a record of enrollment at the very least. Transcripts to prove she�s not failing every term. And it should not be your daughter giving you this. Your ex is receiving support, she is the one you deal with.

Apparently she is, but I have no proof of that. I'm with FRO but you see, each case are unique and mine was ordered this way. My ex was assuming that every time I was requesting something, I was harrasing her. BLA BLA BLA, she was difficult. So I had to communicate with her lawyer whom would ignore me until I take action. $$$ My ex do not want to deal with me.

So I filed a motion to change the final order and now the children (being adults) must provide all those papers. But D19 had blocked me so I forwarded an email to my ex, asking her to ask D19 for those info. That is when I suddenly received a message from D19 saying "why you need this? It's not your business, I don't need your help". And it's true, she never ask me to help her so I am requesting that since I never received any school documentation and she confirm she doesn't need my help, I don't want to help. Therefore no obligations under S7 expenses as per order. I don't want to be caught with retroactive payment later on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 248189)
As for D14�you could request an order for reunification therapy as relief. Otherwise there is nothing.

Reunification therapy was requested formally during 2018-2019 and always refused by the children. They don't want anything with me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 248189)
You have to pay support for her whether the relationship is broken down or not. My husband learned this. Fighting to stop it is more money than the cost to pay and you would lose.

This is the funny part. I never mentionned i wanted to stop CS for D14. I'm not a fool and I've been reading case laws and family law books since the beginning of my litigation and being self-represented for a long period, I've prepared all my documents to be filed at both the Court Registry for Trial in Ottawa and the Appeal Court in Toronto that I both pleaded and won. Now, for this Motion to change, I decided to hire a lawyer as I felt self-represented were disadvantage when testifying at trial for ourselve on a custody matter. (having no lawyer to question at primary makes it harder)

Being said, this spring at the Trial conference on Zoom, the judge who went over our file told me that there was no chance that CS for D14 would be dropped before she gets to 18. It was never mentionned, my documents written and filed by my lawyer were cleared that I wasn't asking to stop any of my obligations for D14 until she is 18. This is just a firm confirmation that as soon as you raised a concern related to the relation between a father and his child, it's being turned right away to a matter of providing CS. No matter how the father address any interest in his children, it all falls down to money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 248189)
You could get an order saying cs stops at 18 unless you receive proof she is in a meaningful program of study and the ex is ordered to provide proof and transcripts.

This is the main reason why were going to court, it's to seek the best way for reunification with D14 and to foresee a plan when she reach 18 to force them to provide papers otherwise I'm not paying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 248189)
This is what sucks for paying parents and leads to stupid fights. My husbands ex danced around for three weeks providing receipts for kids first year of school. It was such monumental bullshit but it was because she �estimated� costs. Then it went on for two more years including court. Even then she refused to provide full documents and instead filed all these government studies on student diets (!!!). The judge at their motion ordered her to provide everything she had or face dismissal. She finally did.

Well you see, this is what my ex and the children are doing right now. They are dancing and laughing. I ask, they ignored me. If i stop paying, they know FRO will come after me. If I take action, they know how long it takes and the money and hassle. This is what I want. Them to finally do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan (Post 248189)
Now he has another year to pay support for a kid who told him they didnt need a father. Thank god the money goes automatically to avoid a monthly reminder!

If D14 goes to post-education for a 4 years program, I still have over 8 years to pay. I'm scheduled to pay FRO directly twice a month so it reminds me all the time that I am paying for 2 daughters who doesn't need a father.

rockscan 11-17-2021 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia007 (Post 248193)
Apparently she is, but I have no proof of that. I'm with FRO but you see, each case are unique and mine was ordered this way. My ex was assuming that every time I was requesting something, I was harrasing her. BLA BLA BLA, she was difficult. So I had to communicate with her lawyer whom would ignore me until I take action. $$$ My ex do not want to deal with me.

So I filed a motion to change the final order and now the children (being adults) must provide all those papers. But D19 had blocked me so I forwarded an email to my ex, asking her to ask D19 for those info. That is when I suddenly received a message from D19 saying "why you need this? It's not your business, I don't need your help". And it's true, she never ask me to help her so I am requesting that since I never received any school documentation and she confirm she doesn't need my help, I don't want to help. Therefore no obligations under S7 expenses as per order. I don't want to be caught with retroactive payment later on.

Doesnt matter. You dont have to pay cs if she isnt in school. Plus if she is in school and living at home, your share of cs would be small. Your answer is you are obligated to provide it to me as per the order. Send it over.

She isnt going to change her mind on liking you if you dont ask for it so why worry? If they are going to be assholes, let them. You are already an asshole in their mind so might as well do whats best for you. My husband went through this when his kids started giving him grief about asking for receipts. He told them flat out your mother is obligated to provide it so if you want her to get repaid, youll help get them for her.

Quote:

Reunification therapy was requested formally during 2018-2019 and always refused by the children. They don't want anything with me.
So this time you ask for it to be ordered and if the kids dont show the ex is in contempt. Why bother going to court if you arent going to demand an order? Reunification therapy can be ordered. Find three therapists locally that do it and add them to your filing.

Quote:

This is just a firm confirmation that as soon as you raised a concern related to the relation between a father and his child, it's being turned right away to a matter of providing CS. No matter how the father address any interest in his children, it all falls down to money.
No I never thought that. Im simply saying that you need to specifically request that cs end at 18 and proof be ordered provided after that. If you have it in your current order good, keep it for this one.

Quote:

Well you see, this is what my ex and the children are doing right now. They are dancing and laughing.
My husband says something similar. I remind him he is contributing to his childs care regardless of whether his ex needs the money or not. Years from now they cant bitch that he didnt pay. My dad never paid. For anything. I remind him of this whenever he bitches about shit. We lived on social assistance and it was embarrassing. He can own that one.

Quote:

If D14 goes to post-education for a 4 years program, I still have over 8 years to pay. I'm scheduled to pay FRO directly twice a month so it reminds me all the time that I am paying for 2 daughters who doesn't need a father.
My husband feels this way but see above AND you dont know what will happen. Two of my siblings reconnected with our dad as soon as they moved out. I reconnected about 10 years after I moved out but only because I was finally able to deal with his behaviour. My brother finally reconnected after he had a child. This was for a man who abandoned three women who bore his kids and never looked back. My father is not a good person but I was able to see through his shit once I was an adult and understood my moms behaviour. It is really difficult for a child to see through these things and understand. I can safely say it is super upsetting to live in that environment. Being constantly told your father is a terrible person and if you have a relationship with them you are no longer loved. My mother actually forced me to return a gift to his gf when I was 14. She told me to find another place to live if I didnt do it. Your children may be cruel to you but they are also mentally unstable as a result of what their mother is doing. It is mental abuse.


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