Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

NCP getting laid off and wants to reduce CS - what to do?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • NCP getting laid off and wants to reduce CS - what to do?

    I'm looking for some advice and opinions on the following situation. I'll start with some background.
    • Divorced for 5 years
    • 2 children 5.5 & 9
    • Mom (me) CP with sole custody, remarried, bothy myself and my spouse have decent full time jobs
    • Dad NCP every other weekend visitation, in common-law relationship, works (or worked) full time, new spouse is unemployed
    • no spousal support only CS & daycare expenses are paid
    • CS has not been increased in five years despite the annual review that is supposed to happen (and he's unionized - unlikely there hasn't been a wage increase)
    My ex has informed me that starting in January he will be transferred from full-time to the casual/on call list at his unionized manufacturing job. He is looking to reduce his support at this time.

    Here's my dilemma. He has a duty to support his children. He has advance warning, to the best of my knowledge the only action he is taking is to "let me know" that he'll be making less and therefore will be sending less money. In all fairness, we can survive without receiving his CS. Things will definitely be tight but livable.

    If my spouse were to lose his job, I would pick up the slack and we would continue to support his children from his previous marriage while he looked like hell for another job.

    I don't trust my ex to tell me if he is really working or not, nor do I believe he would inform me of receiving new employment until he had to (or was caught).

    Suggestions anyone?
    Last edited by kamkatie; 11-18-2010, 03:00 PM. Reason: typo

  • #2
    Yes his income has probably increased in the last five years, but not probably not significanty. I don't know a lot of collective bargaining agreements that are providing for huge wage increases. The effect on CS has probably been negligible.

    If his income is going down (not a surprise in this economy) and you don't trust him (do you?) ask him for documentation to back up his claim. You can play hardball and make him pay until he proves it with his 2011 income in a year and a half, but you may cause hardship for him and worse, cause grief that will filtler down to the kids.

    If you trust him and you can handle the $$ decrease, work with him to reduce the amount.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi kamkatie.

      dadtotheend said it very well.

      I wish my husbands ex wife were as willing to even consider taking a reduced amount as you are.

      As long as you protect yourself in writing,(the trust issue you mentioned at the end of your post...perhaps have in writing you are allowing a temporary reduction because of his circumstances, payments to resume to normal when he is back to work full time, etc)so in the event of failure to disclose re-employment or increased employment on his part you can prove you were very understanding and that the reduction was only temporary and wasn't to replace the order in place? I am not sure if that can be done though. That will be some legal stuff to look into I guess.
      It sounds like showing compassion to your ex's situation could pave the road for a good future relationship in raising your children. Believe me, when things only boil down to money, it can turn ugly fast, and everyone suffers, especially the kids.

      Best of luck with your decision, I live on both sides of the fence (receive CS and have a husband who pays it to his ex), so I do understand.

      K

      Comment


      • #4
        If his hours are dropping THAT significantly he should be receiving EI or work share.

        Ask for proof of the reduction in hours being mandatory. (ie. a letter from HR). He's unionized so it's HIGHLY unlikely it'd be JUST HIM being affected and the company should be able to write him up something to cover his butt regarding his CS obligations.

        You have two choices...

        You can play hardball with him, refuse to allow it unless he goes to court (where he WILL have to prove it's needed, show WHY he's unable to secure income at the current level, etc)

        OR you can be reasonable...

        Personally I'd work with him, ask for something from his company to cover everyone legally, and then reduce the amount until June 30. He can provide you his notice of assessment prior to July 1, 2011 and you can recalculate the support payments back to full table at that time.

        That gives him 6 full months to either get back into full time with the current company, OR to find equivalent work elsewhere that will allow him to meet his CS obligations.

        If he refuses to do any of it. File with FRO (assuming you are in Ontario).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kamkatie View Post
          I'm looking for some advice and opinions on the following situation. I'll start with some background.
          • Divorced for 5 years
          • 2 children 5.5 & 9
          • Mom (me) CP with sole custody, remarried, bothy myself and my spouse have decent full time jobs
          • Dad NCP every other weekend visitation, in common-law relationship, works (or worked) full time, new spouse is unemployed
          • no spousal support only CS & daycare expenses are paid
          • CS has not been increased in five years despite the annual review that is supposed to happen (and he's unionized - unlikely there hasn't been a wage increase)
          My ex has informed me that starting in January he will be transferred from full-time to the casual/on call list at his unionized manufacturing job. He is looking to reduce his support at this time.

          Here's my dilemma. He has a duty to support his children. He has advance warning, to the best of my knowledge the only action he is taking is to "let me know" that he'll be making less and therefore will be sending less money. In all fairness, we can survive without receiving his CS. Things will definitely be tight but livable.

          If my spouse were to lose his job, I would pick up the slack and we would continue to support his children from his previous marriage while he looked like hell for another job.

          I don't trust my ex to tell me if he is really working or not, nor do I believe he would inform me of receiving new employment until he had to (or was caught).

          Suggestions anyone?
          As someone who is very familiar with collective agreements, I can tell you that his pay scale has most likely not increase significantly. In fact in my opinion, pay scales are usually annually and in most cases are anywhere from .50 cent to .85 cents / hour. Trust me on this, his take home will of most likely not have changed, and are usually swallowed up in our areas of his deductions.

          Your comments about he is 'only' paying CS and day care is a little insulting. I can tell you from someone who pays for 2 children that the money I pay is not insignificant, in fact it's crippling me monthly, I still have to keep a place for my children, feed them and cloth them, there is nothing left for anything else, if I want to buy them a toy, I either find it at a second hand store or used online or they get nothing. No one pays me! My 'weekends' are from Friday to Monday morning and one over night through the week. What this equals to is one night less than mom a week. I know if my hours were reduced by even one day, I would have to give up my 2 bedroom apt as I would not be able to afford even modest rent.


          Please do not let this happen to your children's father, as one poster has said the resulting pressures and stress will work it's way to the children. If he has confirmation, I would hope that, in the best interests of the children you'll work with the father.

          Comment


          • #6
            Many views to this topic. I always found the tables to be a form of creative accounting.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you to everyone for your replies. Ok so obviously my assumption of his pay increase may have been incorrect. We were together for four years while he worked for this union and I remember significant pay increases at that time. Maybe things have changed since, in which case, I stand corrected.

              NBDad - June 30th is funny - it's his birthday so I don't know if he'd consider that a good birthday present or not!

              LostFather - I was not trying to be insulting, the "only" referred to the fact that he was not responsible for paying SS and pays table amount for CS and contributes towards daycare expenses. Trust me, I get the whole CS debate. My new spouse has 3 children with his previous wife. We pay full table and contribute towards the extracurricular expenses (as we should). All 3 kids play competitive ringette/hockey at a provincial level so it definitely hurts the pocketbook. We also don't see 2 of the 3 kids as they've decided we're not worth their time or effort (ongoing for 2 years now ).

              I think one of the reasons I'm having a difficult time biting the bullet on this is that he's got advance warning. If I knew my job was disappearing in a month you can bet that I'd be working my a$$ of to find something else. There has been no discussion about that, just a "hey I'm out of work so I need to pay less" comment.

              I don't think I'm prepared to offer a 6 month pass on paying lower support. At this point I'm wavering on this:

              Lower support for 3 months (enough time to establish a new position) then re-evaluate support based on new employment.

              I'm waffling because when we setup our agreement there was supposed to be a yearly adjustment of CS based based on the income tax return. Although I have asked numerous times to do this it has never happened and it hasn't seemed worth the effort to take it to court. If we actually did this method then he shouldn't get the 3 month discount. It would be made up to him next year when his income and CS was decreased. We do this method with my husband's ex and although it does make things tight on occasion, overall I find it a fair method.

              Comment


              • #8
                katie....

                Depending on the Union, some collective agreements are published online, so you can review them and find out exactly what his pay increase was this past year.

                In most circumstances, a raise of 2 to 3% is the norm.... unless his contract was re-negotiated in 2009... Most organizations capitalized on the economic down-turn last year, and refused to provide for annual increases.

                With a little research, you can also find out if his employer is down-sizing and laying off... and whether it is expected to be a temporary or permanent situation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kamkatie View Post
                  I think one of the reasons I'm having a difficult time biting the bullet on this is that he's got advance warning. If I knew my job was disappearing in a month you can bet that I'd be working my a$$ of to find something else. There has been no discussion about that, just a "hey I'm out of work so I need to pay less" comment.
                  Notwithstanding some ridiculous stories where support payors have been ordered to maintain their support payment levels after decreases in income, his lawful obligation to pay CS derives from his income. If it goes down he pays less, period.

                  Originally posted by kamkatie View Post
                  I don't think I'm prepared to offer a 6 month pass on paying lower support. At this point I'm wavering on this:

                  Lower support for 3 months (enough time to establish a new position) then re-evaluate support based on new employment..
                  Then let it flow the way the agreement was designed and have it reduced in a year and a half. And hope that the resulting s**t storm doesn't affect your children.

                  Originally posted by kamkatie View Post
                  I'm waffling because when we setup our agreement there was supposed to be a yearly adjustment of CS based based on the income tax return. Although I have asked numerous times to do this it has never happened and it hasn't seemed worth the effort to take it to court. If we actually did this method then he shouldn't get the 3 month discount. It would be made up to him next year when his income and CS was decreased. We do this method with my husband's ex and although it does make things tight on occasion, overall I find it a fair method.
                  You've already been advised a couple of times that the effect of his income changes in the last several years would be insignificant. Let it go.

                  I understand that the letter of your agreement hasn't been followed but it would appear that the spirit has been. You are within your rights to keep the current level of CS until his decrease in income winds through the timeline. But will it be in the kid's best interest to have him paying CS at the current level for a year and a half when his income has declined? Will that impair his ability to provide a good environment for the child during his access time?

                  You having a moral position about his (un)willingness to beat a path to another job lickety split is just that - a moral position - not a legal one.

                  One wonders whether the fact that your family is burdened by the CS your current hubby pays is affecting your judgement here. Not that it shouldn't affect it, but it doesn't take priority over the child's best interest.

                  You already said you can afford the reduction if it came to that, so it's tough to be sympathetic with your position.
                  Last edited by dadtotheend; 11-19-2010, 12:38 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kamkatie View Post
                    Thank you to everyone for your replies. Ok so obviously my assumption of his pay increase may have been incorrect. We were together for four years while he worked for this union and I remember significant pay increases at that time. Maybe things have changed since, in which case, I stand corrected.

                    NBDad - June 30th is funny - it's his birthday so I don't know if he'd consider that a good birthday present or not!

                    LostFather - I was not trying to be insulting, the "only" referred to the fact that he was not responsible for paying SS and pays table amount for CS and contributes towards daycare expenses. Trust me, I get the whole CS debate. My new spouse has 3 children with his previous wife. We pay full table and contribute towards the extracurricular expenses (as we should). All 3 kids play competitive ringette/hockey at a provincial level so it definitely hurts the pocketbook. We also don't see 2 of the 3 kids as they've decided we're not worth their time or effort (ongoing for 2 years now ).

                    I think one of the reasons I'm having a difficult time biting the bullet on this is that he's got advance warning. If I knew my job was disappearing in a month you can bet that I'd be working my a$$ of to find something else. There has been no discussion about that, just a "hey I'm out of work so I need to pay less" comment.

                    I don't think I'm prepared to offer a 6 month pass on paying lower support. At this point I'm wavering on this:

                    Lower support for 3 months (enough time to establish a new position) then re-evaluate support based on new employment.

                    I'm waffling because when we setup our agreement there was supposed to be a yearly adjustment of CS based based on the income tax return. Although I have asked numerous times to do this it has never happened and it hasn't seemed worth the effort to take it to court. If we actually did this method then he shouldn't get the 3 month discount. It would be made up to him next year when his income and CS was decreased. We do this method with my husband's ex and although it does make things tight on occasion, overall I find it a fair method.
                    You've talked about him finding another job, here is the problem with that. I am not sure how long he has held his position or seniority level, but it maybe worth mentioning that leaving a job that may have benefits like medical, dental, eye glasses and or pension to peruse another job that may or may not have those mentioned, just to make a few extra dollars may not be a wise move either, nor should you let money make that decision if you can get by.

                    These times are not the best for finding jobs, especially jobs that have access to benefits...though he may of been down sized, there maybe a good chance later, in the not too distance future that his position will be offered back at the level he once was...being in a union in most cases protects a worker of recall rights, meaning they can't hire or put someone else into his position without first offering him such....but if he were to quit, to make you happy with CS, then all bets are off...any really what is out there today?? We're sending everything to China and India.


                    Good Luck

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Question?

                      What is the hourly wage he was earning....and what other company is offering the same wage and has job openings?

                      Last year i took a 10% hit on my wages as the company struggled to make good on some significant losses....and as other companies trimmed employees...it seems they can replace me with others who will work for less than what they are paying me.....

                      Bottom line is it seems the wages of many are going to be affected...and we will then also have less money to spend on the things that are not important for our children...like ringette

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        He makes somewhere in the range of $23/hour and as was pointed out by LostFather has a fairly decent benefits package (although he still owes me $400+ for a retainer that was fully covered by his benefits, but that's another story).

                        I haven't heard anything more from him about the lay-off and am waiting for more information. At this point, I agree with the comments that he will be better off in the long run to wait out the slow down rather than search for new employment. So we'll see what kind of compromise can be reached once he talks to me about it.

                        Thank you everyone for your replies and opinions.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sounds to me like you are all about the money you are used to receiving...if he has another spouse to support, he also has those expenses without the benefit of a second income as you do.

                          My advice would be to raise your concerns with your ex, try to be reasonable, or stick to the agreement as it currently stands and perhaps bankrupt him...that's always in the child's best interest, right?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oh yea, I'm all about getting what's "mine" (where's that sarcasm font?). Currently owing by him is $300 CS from when I voluntarily withdrew from the FRO to accomodate him, the over $450 that he couldn't be bothered to put through his benefits for our daughter's retainer, the $300+ cell phone bill of his from when we split etc etc etc.

                            Last time I checked CS was for the kids' benefit not mine. I get that none of you actually know this person and therefore cannot understand the entire situation. He's not really big on responsibility, will buy beer before food, you get the idea.

                            That being said, I understand there has been a slow down in his industry. I get that staying at his current employment and waiting out the slow down is likely better for everyone (him included) in the long run. I have already stated that I am willing to work with him to find some compromise given the likelihood he will be working less.

                            I don't buy the "he has another spouse to support" crap. She has a duty to provide for herself. He has a duty to provide for his kids and himself. When my ex and I split I went back to school in order to be able to support myself and better support my children.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This age old argument continues to go around and around and around.

                              Support payors argue that the theory is a pipe dream. The money is for the children's benefit but the recipient has full discretion to spend it as he/she sees fit and just spends it on him/herself.

                              Support recipients argue that the money is for the benefit of the children and that payors who don't pay are deadbeats.

                              I'm not referring to anyone who posted in this thread, but y'all know what I'm talkin' about. The arguments on both sides are rooted in mistrust, unresolved feelings about the relationship that went south, who's fault it was, blah blah blah.

                              I have found that the best (although not ideal) way to trump both arguments is to put the CS money into an RESP. That way the payor cannot argue that the recipient is living off the CS instead of using it to support the kids and the recipient cannot say that the payor is a deadbeat.

                              I get that many folks financial situation doesn't allow for this. When family financial conditions allow for it though, it's pretty hard for either side to get pissy with it.

                              In my case, I am lucky enough (no wait, I work my ass off in my business and I f'n well made my own good luck ) to be able to take that money, including CTB money and put it straight to the RESP.

                              Of course that doesn't deal with my ex's unwillingness to abide by the rules and pay according to her income. But that's for the court (motion to change) and the FRO (enforcement) to deal with and is another story altogether.
                              Last edited by dadtotheend; 11-30-2010, 11:05 AM.

                              Comment

                              Our Divorce Forums
                              Forums dedicated to helping people all across Canada get through the separation and divorce process, with discussions about legal issues, parenting issues, financial issues and more.
                              Working...
                              X