Another spousal question

[Carnut]

I was on here a couple years ago, my wife left me, just said she was unhappy.
We tried going back and forth with how to make a fair separation agreement. Nothing was ever far off, it seemed. At all. One day I was notified by a lawyer that my ex had retained. We agreed to exchange information and try separation agreement out of court. Long story short, I gave asset info and was putting together financial info and I was served.

House price- at time of separation mortgage was 480,000 and house value 575,000. That is HER number. I have values as low as 525,000 to 540,000 MAX in writing. I said I would agree to 575,000. She said no to 1/2 realtor fees.
Spousal
She left two years ago. She made $52,000 wages. I made $67,000 wages but I have rrsps income and a work van allowance on my total income as well, my T4 says $80,000 for 2012. My wage has not changed.
She now makes $55,000. She has worked at her full time government job full of benefits for 12 years. I now find out she was officially "part time" for the first 4 years. She has worked the whole marriage except maternity leave both kids, and after we moved to where SHE wanted to move to she then decided she didn't want a 45 minute commute to work, so she quit and did daycare until less than a year later finding a job she wanted. She worked 3 or more days a week and did daycare at our house days she was off. Undeclared income.
She claims she asked for spousal support when she left, Jan 2013 and I refused to pay. Her lawyer said in the judicial case conference that I refused to pay. I replied I WAS NEVER ASKED.
Not once was I asked to pay spousal. Not once did she say she was short on money. She went on trips to California for a week, Vegas for a week, weekend outings, restaurants regularly, got a tattoo, bought and insured a second car etc. AFTER she left.
I worked overtime and saved in order to try a buyout of the house.
On paper we are now= SHE- $55,000 per year on T4. ME $88,000 per year on T4. She also moved her cousin into my basement before she left, so $12,600 is added to my income. $100,000.
My wages for 2014 were $70,000 but my rrsps and van allowance are included because I have to pay taxes on that. Her pension is NOT included in her T4.

I have texts that clearly show she never asked me for spousal when she left. First time she mentioned it was in a text on Feb 2014, over a year after she left. Doesn't indicate she NEEDS spousal, just a text to tell me "Did you know I am entitled to spousal support?"
A month later she texts me she would like my tax info. I reply in text "Why do you need my tax info?" She replies "no reason other than to have all the paperwork.... please don't think I am up to something ... Iam not".
Does that sound like she asked me for spousal support?
She now wants 1000 a month retroactive spousal support, and 1500-1800 a month spousal support. I will lose my house so rental income should HOPEFULLY not be a factor anymore but my actual wages are 70,000 and her actual wages are 55,000. That's not how spousal is determined though.
I don't find the judicial system fair, but that is another thing.
Long term marriage, is there automatic entitlement?

[Carnut]

She wants house value now to mortgage owed now, which I always thought it was values at time of separation. I have read a bit and maybe I was told wrong information. My lawyer even sad she is owed "!/2 value of family assets at time of separation". I now don't know if I believe that.
I'm in BC

[arabian]

"Old 02-24-2013, 02:41 AM
arabian
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 6,572

I hate to be an "I told you so" but do keep us posted. I look forward to hearing the outcome of your case."

Yes it has been a few years since you posted. I see that back in 2013 you indicated your ex was asking you and requesting information about your income. Well I think people ask about incomes for the purpose of determining SS or CS and we know it's not CS because you have no young children you are supporting. (check back in your previous posts if you need to reference the date - I believe it was around February 2013).

Whole thing about SS is she has to prove her entitlement to it first of all. To do this could be expensive for both of you in terms of legal costs.

In long term marriages the objective is to ensure that both parties leave the marriage on equal footing. While she made less employment income than you did, your respective combined incomes contributed to a joint lifestyle which you both enjoyed. Need and self-sufficiency are moot points in this situation IMO.

Some people drag their heels through a divorce. House prices have gone up considerably in the past few years in many places. I assume that you remained in the marital home as I believe you indicated that she had moved out of the matrimonial home at time of separation. If you take the value of the house at time of separation and add on occupational rent that you may be required to factor in for living in the home for the past 2 years post-separation, the numbers might be the same as if you simply sold the house today and split the proceeds equally. You will have to do the math. I do know that the longer this goes on the more money you will end up paying your lawyers.

Realize that her lawyer is going to pitch the high numbers out at first to you - typical tactic. They expect a counter-offer from you which will probably be extremely low. You will likely settle somewhere in the middle.

Spousal Support is 100% tax deductible to you and 100% taxable to her.

[arabian]

I will post some cases from CanLii (British Columbia) that I think you might find interesting a/or relevant. Here is one:

https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...cmlhZ2UAAAAAAQ

https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...cmlhZ2UAAAAAAQ

[Carnut]

Hey Arabian. I was actually awaiting your reply.
I just wanted to let you know maybe we got off to a wrong perception a couple years ago, but I know you are my best "other side" opinion I can get here.

I did reinjure my ankle btw- two months off about 18 months ago, but I haven't been badly injured since.

My vehicles I first posted about I think are out of the equation. I had one vehicle I purchased 10 years before the marriage that was never insured the whole time we were together. It doesn't run, never has, it is a project, it is NOT nice, but she still went after it. She said I drove her around the block once while we were dating.

This is what I deal with Arabian. Honestly.
I will post pics when all is said and done, oh how I await the replies.

Spousal I had a feeling, as you say why else would she ask for my tax return? Not sure if I posted above but I still have her texts to me- I asked her "Why do you want my tax info" and she replied "no reason other than to have all the paperwork.... please don't think I am up to something ... I am not".
I knew. She has never been honest with me.
I know many assume people tell slanted stories on here trying to make themselves look better than what is the truth.

I guess what I don't feel fair is she is now going after spousal support, after vacations, trips, concerts, parties and restaurants etc. She is living more lavishly now than then. I have work as much as possible and saved almost everything for a buyout attempt.
Two different lifestyles.
I assume from the sounds of things entitlement really does NOT have to be proven in a 21 year marriage. Ive read otherwise but it seems what I read doesn't matter.
Her wages were 55,000 last year. Her pension worth is not included in that figure obviously. My income ADDS my tax deductible expenses, so the van I drive to work for my company is $6000 added taxable income. She is entitled to half that amount for spousal support even though I cant spend it. I also have $13,000ish a year in rrsps. People think their ex is only entitled to rrsps DURING their marriage, but that too is wrong. They are taxable income, so she can get 1/2 that 13,000 a year through spousal guidelines. I cannot include her pension value, she includes my rrsp value and my use of van value, even though I cannot spend those amounts as they are not income.

I see what you wrote about house prices, funny, I just replied to a post about it.

[Carnut]

Whole thing about SS is she has to prove her entitlement to it first of all. To do this could be expensive for both of you in terms of legal costs.

To be honest Arabian, I don't think that is true. I believe it is a given in long term marriages? She never applied for interim support, never asked me for any support, never said she was short for money, and we went through our first judicial case conference and she still never applied for interim spousal support.
Her lawyer said she wants retroactive spousal support to date of separation.

You see "the other side" well - do you think retroactive spousal support is reasonable?

BTW- Her "last year wages" and my "last year wages" were 55,000 to 70,000. I don't understand why spousal is not determined from wages?? Why do I have to include my work van allowance and my rrsp contributions (both not disposable income, I cannot spend either) and she doesn't have to include her pension? The rental hopefully wont be an issue because the rental will go with the house. I hope anyways!!! I don't think it will be fair if I have to pay spousal including 1050 a month rent figured into my financials which I wont be receiving!!

[arabian]

It comes down to what you negotiate. SS is not written in stone the way CS is.

Sounds like her lawyer is going off of line 150 tax returns? I would hazard a guess that the van allowance and RRSP contributions are not mandatory deductions rather voluntary? Pensions are usually a separate thing under equalization and as you are both working and contributing for them you would get them assessed or negotiate that she keeps her and you keep yours - either way they should be valued for equalization purposes.

And not everyone, even in long term marriages, necessarily are eligible for SS.

You will have two different figures to work from - one with home/rental income and one after home is sold and there is no rental income. This rental income would be reflected and accounted for on your tax return anyhow.

Again, spousal support is not necessarily for "need." Try to read through those few cases I have posted. You need to get up to speed to understand how spousal support is determined:

"Where compensatory principles do not apply, need alone may be sufficient to ground a claim for spousal support (Bracklow, at para. 43). Non-compensatory support is grounded in the "social obligation model" of marriage, in which marriage is seen as an interdependent union. It embraces the idea that upon dissolution of a marriage, the primary burden of meeting the needs of the disadvantaged spouse falls on his or her former partner, rather than the state (Bracklow, at para. 23). Non-compensatory support aims to narrow the gap between the needs and means of the spouses upon marital breakdown, and as such, it is often referred to as the "means and needs" approach to spousal support."

It is very confusing until you read through some cases and then it will make sense to you. The better you understand the less time your lawyer will have to take to explain things to you. With increased understanding you will be able to understand why the other side uses specific case law in their arguments and then you can counter it. A big game of ping-pong.

[arabian]

Here is another case from BC from 2012 with plenty of information.

https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...cmlhZ2UAAAAAAQ


here is one from BC where there is a rental suite to consider:

https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...cmlhZ2UAAAAAAQ

[arabian]

here's one from BC where application for retro spousal support was denied. Fast forward to the end of the document:

https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...14bcsc729.html

Here is a case for you to look from B.C this past year that shows reallocation and you can see how occupational rent is typically accounted for:

https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...4bcsc2035.html

[Carnut]

Thanks Arabian.
I think we got off on the wrong foot for no reason.

Any help I can get is truly appreciated.

[arabian]

Not a problem at all - I'm only too pleased to help in any way. I'm certainly no expert. I do recall how overwhelmed I was at the start of my divorce. I didn't discover this site until 2 years after my separation. When I first signed up on here I sparred with many people (still do from time to time). When one is on the receiving end of SS you're not too popular on here. Like many other people I did not having a clue about anything besides what I had heard from friends who had divorced fabulously rich husbands or what I had watched on American television shows. My expectations were lofty to say the least. Thankfully I had an excellent lawyer who kept me grounded.

Divorce is a nasty business. It's hard to do but if you can take the emotion out of things and look at everything from different perspectives it will help you make decisions that are right for your situation.

[Links17]

Can you give a timeline of your marriage life and her working status during that time and if her working status can be portrayed to be a result of choices she made to benefit the family?


How old are you both?

There are no children?

I would say without children and her income level, the delays and if there is no official written legal request for spousal that she is SOL.

Can you use the van for personal use?

[Carnut]

Can you give a timeline of your marriage life and her working status during that time and if her working status can be portrayed to be a result of choices she made to benefit the family?


How old are you both?

There are no children?

I would say without children and her income level, the delays and if there is no official written legal request for spousal that she is SOL.

Can you use the van for personal use?

I made an error two years ago. Marriage length was 21 years, not 22 years.
I am 51, she is 45. She was 43 when she left, that is 64 total not 65 but I'm not sure that matters anyways.
We have two children, my son is 24 and he lives with me, my daughter is 21 and lives with her boyfriend.
She claims she asked right away, I have just downloaded texts that clearly show that is not true. It is not true. We have been to one judicial case conference, she still has not given a written request. My WAGES were $70,000 last year, but my T4 income is 88,000. It includes my rrsps and my van allowance. I have an assessment from CRA that shows 70,278 for 2012 WAGES without van and rrsps.2011 I was 64,340 WAGES 2010 I was 75,000 WAGES. Her income for 2012 was 55,000 WAGES. For last year it was 55,000 but she reduced her job to 10 months a year right before she left me, she was working 12 months a year. I will be stuck including my van allowance and rrsps..??

I am not exaggerating about our lifestyles the last two years, she has been on vacations, getaways, partied, got a tattoo, bought and insured a second car, much more extravagant a lifestyle than when she was with me.

[Carnut]

Can you use the van for personal use?

Sorry, missed this.
I am not supposed to but I can. I've worked there 27 years and they like me. I have used it many times when I didn't have a car or when my car broke down.

[Carnut]

When one is on the receiving end of SS you're not too popular on here.

If I believe it is deserved I have no problem. I know many people twist stories to suit their position and it's hard to know what to believe and what not to believe on a forum.