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  • Well, he did it

    Previous info can be found here: http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...g-sorry-17249/

    My son is going into second year university. He's renting a room off campus, and spent the entire summer working full time to earn the rent for the time he's there. He and his dad had a falling out three years ago and haven't been speaking. Basis of the fight, was my son feeling neglected and uncared for, while his siblings from his dad's new family were loved and cared for.

    My son wrote a letter a year ago, asking his dad if he was helping with university, because he needed to fill out his OSAP forms. Dad said he wouldn't discuss it with him. I followed up with a letter giving him the school and program information. I also added a personal note of how hurt his son is that is own father hasn't done anything to help put their relationship together and hopefully one day he'll see the light and make things right with his son. Neither of us heard back from him, neither did my attorney.

    He continued paying support for the year, but gave nothing towards school. I continue paying for all of my son's food, clothes, cell, etc., while he pursues a degree. He lives at school during the week, is home on weekends, Christmas, reading weeks, and all summer (April until school starts again). We never bugged his father for school money after the initial letter sent, we just continued on as usual, as OSAP covered his school and my son's earnings and a small RESP paid for the rest.

    Yesterday my lawyer sent me a letter from a lawyer my ex retained. He now has decided that since my son is 18 and they no longer speak, he is done paying child support. I think they're trying to play up the angle that my son cut off ties through no fault of his father's actions, or his wife's.

    Can he do this? My son is still dependent on me. I don't want him having to drop out of school because he has to work full time. This arrangement has been working, even without his help for tuition. My son was going to live with me for a while after school, so he can put more towards his OSAP loan. I've never asked for anything more than support for 17 years (section 7s and never asked for spousal), and never even made him show me his NOA, because I just trusted he was giving me the proper amount of support each month. For him to say he has no obligation towards his son anymore, makes me sick.

  • #2
    Well he can certainly try.

    In reading CanLii decisions I've seen judges make decisions based on a number of items including, but not limited to, the following:

    1. Academic achievement. Full course load. His marks.
    2. Contribution adult child makes to his own education - this he has done.
    3. Relationship with father and definition of "child of the marriage"
    4. Financial situation of both parents and their proportionate contribution.

    I think you probably have #1 and 2 covered.

    Relationship of adult child and parent has been the sticking point for many cases. Judges don't like it when child essentially ignores the paying parent and then demands money. It is felt that child should keep up some sort of relationship even just to inform paying parent of his progress in his studies.

    I would think that full financial disclosure and exchange (between not just parents but adult child as well) would be a logical next step. Son will have to show bursaries/scholarship money received (his own tax returns).

    Comment


    • #3
      The relationship thing is hard. My son thinks he's all adult and he's fine with what happened, but he's hurt. He's told me numerous times that he's ready to talk to his dad, but his dad hasn't tried in years. He's never shown an interest in his son's life. Never asked for report cards, never wanted to meet teachers, didn't know what grade he was in a few times, etc. I thought at the very least, he'd show up at his high school grad, but nothing. None of his family did, even after a few said they'd be there. No cards. No calls. All that was said in the response letter was, "Oh...I'm delighted you're going to university. I suppose this means you graduated from high school". Wtf? My son would like a relationship with his dad, but not with his father's wife, other than being at family gatherings. He wants one on one time with his father. He's only ever wanted that. It makes me so sad.

      At this point my son is fine not having him contribute to his tuition. However, even with my income, I need at least a portion of support so I can continue paying for my son necessities while in school. I'm just stunned that a parent can be so quick to walk away, just for the sake of saving money. If my child refused to speak to me, I'd be devastated

      Comment


      • #4
        I know only too well that you can't force someone to love their son.

        You have to look at this non-emotionally though. If you go to court and lose you will be on the hook for costs. It sounds as though you can't afford a hic-cup right now. If you were to hire a lawyer the lawyer would likely respond to the other lawyer with a request for full financial disclosure and statement of intent that the matter be heard by a judge. Sometimes this is enough for other side to make an offer to settle. Sometimes not. You have to make the decision on whether you can afford to lose (worst case scenario so-to-speak).

        Get on CanLii and do some reading. You can see how the judges come to their decision and then weigh your own situation. Pay particular attention to the definition of "child of the marriage." Just because a child reaches the age of 18 doesn't mean the parents are off the hook for education and support, particularly if child is in post-secondary education. If child is going through a 4 year degree program, at a recognized university, chances are that the father will be ordered to pay his proportionate share of school expenses along with child support if child is still living at home. If the child isn't still living at home the number is reduced but not eliminated altogether as child lives at home during summer etc. You could also get your son to prepare a budget outlining his income and expenses.

        Comment


        • #5
          There was a case posted somewhere on this site that indicated that it is incumbent on the parent to demonstrate that they made reasonable efforts to reconcile the relationship before they can cut off support.

          If he and your son have both hardly talked to each other, then it will be challenging for him to demonstrate that he made any efforts to have a relationship, which will mean that he is still on the hook. The judge will have to be convinced that your son rebuffed dad on a number of occasions for dad to properly declare the relationship as irreparable.

          Where your son has hurt his case is not reaching out either. He may have told YOU that he's ready to talk to dad, but he needs to ask himself just how much he has tried as well.

          You can counter-claim to maintain the status-quo of child support, AND try to get dad to pay a proportionate share of the tuition and other expenses as well. He might very well back down and simply opt to keep things the same.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think texting is terrible. They originally started fighting during a phone call, and my son was freaking out (I tried to calm him down but it was 15 years of resentment coming to a head), and his dad kept threatening to hang up. My told him if he hung up, he'd never speak to him again. His father hung up. My ex's family knows that the father is to blame (they've told me so), but so as to not make waves, they've also stopped contacting my son. It's hurtful and cruel. All my son ever wanted was some love and attention from his father, but once he had new kids, that all disappeared. His dad refused to take him Wednesday night dinners because it was a "hassle". He'd see him every other weekend with zero contact in between. The one time his dad played catch on the front lawn with him, the new wife sent all the other kids out to play with them, because it was "unfair to exclude" them. My son went back into the house while the rest of them played. My son doesn't want money from his dad....he wants a dad.

            Thanks Arabian and Straittohell, for your advice and suggestions. I want to see my son happy with a a dad who loves him, but I also want to be able to provide for him until he's done school.

            Comment


            • #7
              There are many many MANY cases on canlii where judges have thrown out the argument of no relationship = no money. Visitation is NOT tied to support. You need to speak with a lawyer and fight this and go for costs. What is in your agreement? Standard is as long as theyre in school parent has to pay cs. He is not off the hook and is probably hoping the letter from a lawyer will scare you into submission. Best to get a court order that can ultimately be enforced.

              Comment


              • #8
                Unfortunately, my agreement sucks. It was done in 1997, and while I had a very good custody and access agreement done by a child psychologist, my actual divorce order stated nothing. It stated my ex was to pay X amount in child support (reflecting his current salary then), and to refer to the parenting agreement. That's it. Literally. My now makes over $120,000 now, and the only thing I ever asked for help with, was my son's braces. Even then, insurance covered half, and he and I split the balance, even though he made 4 times what I did.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I thoroughly doubt he would win this in litigation.
                  You would probably get proportional S7 expenses, updated child support etc...
                  Even retroactively perhaps

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Agree with Links. Parents still have the obligation. It may cost a bit to speak with a lawyer but might be worth it. Your son is still considered a child of the marriage because hes in school, your ex still has a responsibility to him financially.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm not even interested in anything retro. I just want him to pay here on, and have an order saying when he can stop. I'm not pursuing some man making $35,000 a year. He's been telling my son his whole life, that "your mother takes all my money". And whenever he asked for something, such as help for a second hand acoustic guitar so he could take a credit course in high school, he was denied because his dad claimed there was no money. His stepmother kept a blog for public, giving in full detail how they worship that show "til debt do us part". She published how they got out of debt ten years ago, and all their various bank accounts....$11,000 for emergency house fund, $17,000 for their dream Mustang fund, $20,000 for her kids' university funds, etc. She gave my son the url to read it. When he saw that, he flipped! He was denied dollar store toys because they claimed to be broke. There was also a vacation fund set up, and they were clearly not planning on taking him. Then his dad blames his son for the estrangement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm not even interested in anything retro. I just want him to pay here on, and have an order saying when he can stop. I'm not pursuing some man making $35,000 a year. He's been telling my son his whole life, that "your mother takes all my money". And whenever he asked for something, such as help for a second hand acoustic guitar so he could take a credit course in high school, he was denied because his dad claimed there was no money. His stepmother kept a blog for public, giving in full detail how they worship that show "til debt do us part". She published how they got out of debt ten years ago, and all their various bank accounts....$11,000 for emergency house fund, $17,000 for their dream Mustang fund, $20,000 for her kids' university funds, etc. She gave my son the url to read it. When he saw that, he flipped! He was denied dollar store toys because they claimed to be broke. There was also a vacation fund set up, and they were clearly not planning on taking him. Then his dad blames his son for the estrangement
                        He wasn't denied anything as I see it. He had all the basic necessities of life as he is still alive today and he is thriving and earning an education based on your posts. I'm not suggesting the situation was ideal, but you have to let this emotional baggage go. He paid what he was *supposed to pay you all those years. *You chose not to pursue additional costs since 1997 from the sounds of it... Personally, I wouldn't buy dollar store toys either - they are a waste of money. There are many different ways to rationalize some of the statements you make above. They may have said they were too broke for a dollar store toy to him but do you really know that is what they said? In any event, it's a moot point. It really isn't your business. And it is clouding the waters in my opinion.

                        Now for the university expenses. I will repeat my ex husband's story: A judge ruled that the CHILD made no attempts to contact his father and maintain the relationship with his father and therefore the judge decided to cease ALL support.

                        Now, I will qualify what exactly happened and what the judge based this on:

                        The CHILD's lack of interest. Truth is, the child consistently made NO attempts to engage or interact with the father over the years.

                        The father made only SOME attempts in the earlier years to engage the son. This wasn't even a big factor that weighed in for *this judge. I point this out because the judge even said something to the affect that eventually a parent gives up as too much time has gone by with the same consistent behaviours from the child. Eventually it is deemed equivalent to doing the same thing and getting the same result, so the parent/father tries something else (not engaging at all) to see if that might get a different result.

                        Who knows what is going to happen with your child's university expenses. Its a real crap shoot I think. If he has two years left, why not negotiate for one year and figure out a plan for the balance? Throw him a bone knowing you will have to find a compromise.

                        Your son doesn't have to quit school. He can take a semester off and work or reduce his school load part time and work a bit more. There are MANY different ways to come to the same end, some take longer than others but so be it. Life isn't always the way we planned for it. The situation you describe above about your son having to quit is a bit extreme in my opinion. I've been in school myself for many years and managed work and school and kids, so there are likely more possibilities than you have explored.

                        As for the relationship with dad: If your son refuses to engage with the new wife and the father insists that he is a package deal with new wife, then essentially your son has decided that he does not want a relationship with his father. The opportunity cost may very well be his support cheque to boot.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My son thinks he's all adult and he's fine with what happened, but he's hurt. He's told me numerous times that he's ready to talk to his dad, but his dad hasn't tried in years.
                          There is some sucking and blowing going on here... he is ready to talk to his dad but has never made an attempt...he is fine with what happened, that is the reason he hasn't made an attempt to communicate with his dad...your son is responsible for himself. If he wants to talk to dad he has to throw that bone. Dad can choose to answer or ignore but that is independent of what your son wants and does do. So far, your son hasn't pursued his dad in any way.

                          He's never shown an interest in his son's life. Never asked for report cards, never wanted to meet teachers, didn't know what grade he was in a few times, etc.
                          Not ideal, but these are facts. They are not resolveable now. You need to move on (and on and on) from this.

                          My son would like a relationship with his dad
                          But your son has never made any effort with his dad since their falling out...

                          but not with his father's wife, other than being at family gatherings.
                          But your son hasn't even reached out to dad and even stipulated "I'd like a relationship with you but not with your wife unless it is at family gatherings".

                          He wants one on one time with his father. He's only ever wanted that. It makes me so sad
                          .

                          My question is then why does your son's actions not support the sentiments/words above? Logically you cannot get what you want if you do not communicate with dad. And he is better able to get what he wants if he explicitly states what he wants (i.e. one on one time with dad, etc.).

                          Quite simply, your son is saying one thing and doing nothing about it.



                          At this point my son is fine not having him contribute to his tuition. However, even with my income, I need at least a portion of support so I can continue paying for my son necessities while in school. I'm just stunned that a parent can be so quick to walk away, just for the sake of saving money. If my child refused to speak to me, I'd be devastated

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KMF View Post
                            My son would like a relationship with his dad, but not with his father's wife, other than being at family gatherings. He wants one on one time with his father.
                            I am going to post solely on this point, others have touched on the c/s and relationship part and that your ex will have to provide evidence at trial that he has tried and been rebuffed by your son.

                            Anyway, to my point. It sounds like your son wants the relationship, but on his terms. I am sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Your son doesn't get to say that a huge part of your ex's life stay away while they are together. It is irresponsible and it is illogical to think that someone would even agree to that. Asking that would just further fragment the family, as I doubt dad wants to be in the middle explaining to his kids and wife why his other son doesn't want to be around them.

                            It sounds like both your son and his dad need to get over themselves. The fight on the phone where dad hung-up, I would hang up as well. No one deserves to be yelled at and disrespected. The child made the ultimatum about never speaking again, and we all know how much people love being pushed into corners like that.

                            Dad may not have been the best dad. And his actions now continue to reflect that. But the child needs to get out of their own way if there is any hope for mending the relationship. He needs to understand that dad's family is a big part of dad's life and accept that. He needs to understand that ultimatums only succeed in further failure. Dad needs to step up and not let a child dictate who, when and where they see each other. And if the child can't accept that others he may not around, will be around and to suck it up. Then the child is the one with the bigger problem.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Serene...nothing you say surprises me. Some stepmothers walk into the picture and make it about them. Not that you'd have any idea about that, would you?

                              A parent is a parent. They are responsible for being the adults. My son was 15 when this happened, and you are trying to convince me that a text message to his son, was an adequate attempt to reach out to him? The last time my son said he DID want to see his father, his father refused to show up. I would think that shows an insincere gesture on his father's part. For 18 years his father showed zero interest in his son, because once he had a new family, it all became about them. Left out of family gatherings and celebrations, yet it apparently is my son's fault. His stepmother systematically forced my son out of the picture over the course of 15 years. Did his father allow it to happen? Yes, he did. When his own family sees it and my son was the victim of it, then I think he has every right to turn down a relationship with this woman. Why do they have to be a package deal? So if my son wants to have dinner with his dad, she has to be present? As one of his stepmother's relatives put it, "He finds it easier to walk away from his son, than face the consequences of making her unhappy". This is her own family saying this.

                              I chose not pursue the extra expenses because it would have meant more legal costs and my son would have been caught in the middle. I'm fairly sure had I said my son's mother was behaving this way, I would have gotten some much different answers from some of you.

                              You are reading a three paragraph excerpt based on 18 years of parenting. Since I'm the one of the observers in this situation, I can say without a doubt, that while my son can be stubborn, he has reacted as any person would react. I can also say that his father and stepmother have never had any intention of asking my son to be part of their lives again. It is not that hard to pick up a phone or write a letter saying, "I miss you". That's all he ever needed to hear. All kids deserve to feel loved, even at 18.

                              Comment

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